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tfan
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 Posted: 08/27/16 11:29 am ::: Colin Kaepernick explains why he sat during national anthem |
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Colin Kaepernick explains why he sat during national anthem
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| The 49ers issued a statement about Kaepernick's decision: "The national anthem is and always will be a special part of the pre-game ceremony. It is an opportunity to honor our country and reflect on the great liberties we are afforded as its citizens. In respecting such American principles as freedom of religion and freedom of expression, we recognize the right of an individual to choose and participate, or not, in our celebration of the national anthem." |
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norwester
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| Posted: 08/29/16 12:13 pm ::: |
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Like the response by the organization.
Personally, I stand and salute the flag with my hand over my chest, but I don't mind if other people don't. The ritual just means something to me, but I don't think it should be compulsory.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 08/29/16 2:04 pm ::: |
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| first thing K has done that i liked.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 08/29/16 4:33 pm ::: |
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To me, right now, "The Star-Spangled Banner" is that peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I used to love it, but now I regret ever going anywhere near it. The man who made it — who uses the bathroom in his apron and doesn't wash his hands, is the author of our national anthem, Francis Scott Key, who, as it turns out, was a terrible human being.
Key, as District Attorney of Washington, fought for slavery and against abolitionists every chance he got. Even when Africans in D.C. were injured or murdered, he stood strong against justice for them. He openly spoke racist words against Africans in America. Key said that they were "a distinct and inferior race of people, which all experience proves to be the greatest evil that afflicts a community."
"No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave."
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-stand-star-spangled-banner-article-1.2770075
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Richard 77
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/29/16 5:23 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
To me, right now, "The Star-Spangled Banner" is that peanut butter and jelly sandwich. I used to love it, but now I regret ever going anywhere near it. The man who made it — who uses the bathroom in his apron and doesn't wash his hands, is the author of our national anthem, Francis Scott Key, who, as it turns out, was a terrible human being.
Key, as District Attorney of Washington, fought for slavery and against abolitionists every chance he got. Even when Africans in D.C. were injured or murdered, he stood strong against justice for them. He openly spoke racist words against Africans in America. Key said that they were "a distinct and inferior race of people, which all experience proves to be the greatest evil that afflicts a community."
"No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave."
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/king-stand-star-spangled-banner-article-1.2770075 |
There have been terrible people throughout history, who are known for their achievements in their culture. We can celebrate an accomplishment, but we don't have to acknowledge or admire the terrible person behind it._________________ If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek |
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 08/29/16 9:38 pm ::: |
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| Richard 77 wrote: |
| There have been terrible people throughout history, who are known for their achievements in their culture. We can celebrate an accomplishment, but we don't have to acknowledge or admire the terrible person behind it. |
I can't think of too many "terrible" people whose contributions we value: are we talking about the Van Goghs who were troubled, or the drug-addict, abusive musical artists whose work the pubic adores?
I kind of get that thinking if you want to pick, say, George Washington whose body of work as a leader might soften the impact of knowing he held slaves. But what else is Key known for, besides this song (which is NOT particularly highly thought of by many musicians)??
It's a song about a specific incident when our Flag was a glorious symbol in a war (1812) that tested our mettle. That's cool enough. I, for one, have much more problem with The Pledge: the "....liberty and justice for all" kinda sticks in my craw. 
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pilight
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| Posted: 08/29/16 9:57 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| I kind of get that thinking if you want to pick, say, George Washington whose body of work as a leader might soften the impact of knowing he held slaves. But what else is Key known for, besides this song (which is NOT particularly highly thought of by many musicians)?? |
Key didn't write the music. The tune is from an old drinking song, To Anacreon in Heaven
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ydAIdVKv84g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
And long may the sons of Anacreon intwine
The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine
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Howee
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pilight
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 08/29/16 10:36 pm ::: |
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The cynical side of me is waiting for when Kaepernick is passed over, cut and/or traded (which was already highly likely long before he sat through the National Anthem) and the cries begin that it's in retaliation for his protest and his position.
I'd love to see the emails between him and his agent.
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Howee
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pilight
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| Posted: 08/30/16 8:06 am ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Actually, no, Key just wrote the words. Key's brother-in-law put the two together. |
Well, FINE. Then Key gets a pass, but it's still a crappy song on a technical level.  |
Well, yeah, it's a poor choice for anthem IMO. It's better than Chester, our original anthem, and has more gravitas than Columbia, Gem of the Ocean. Hail Columbia (now the vice presidential anthem) was the de facto national anthem for most of the 19th century. It is OK. Some people like My Country Tis Of Thee even though the tune is the same as the British national anthem. I'd vote for America the Beautiful. Many prefer a more martial song, and some don't want an anthem written by a woman. I feel it captures the American spirit better than the other alternatives.
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Howee
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justintyme
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| Posted: 08/30/16 1:06 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| I'd vote for America the Beautiful. Many prefer a more martial song, and some don't want an anthem written by a woman. I feel it captures the American spirit better than the other alternatives. |
I really don't want an anthem that makes reference to "God" in any way. It is already bad enough that a country that is supposed to have separation of church and state has "In God We Trust" as a national motto and the words "under God" in the pledge (though I also have issues with the idea of a loyalty pledge in the first place).
Although the SSB does have a God reference, it is only in the final stanza and is not ever sung. Which makes it preferable to one that is littered with it.
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 08/30/16 2:06 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| Richard 77 wrote: |
| There have been terrible people throughout history, who are known for their achievements in their culture. We can celebrate an accomplishment, but we don't have to acknowledge or admire the terrible person behind it. |
I can't think of too many "terrible" people whose contributions we value: are we talking about the Van Goghs who were troubled, or the drug-addict, abusive musical artists whose work the pubic adores?
I kind of get that thinking if you want to pick, say, George Washington whose body of work as a leader might soften the impact of knowing he held slaves. But what else is Key known for, besides this song (which is NOT particularly highly thought of by many musicians)??
It's a song about a specific incident when our Flag was a glorious symbol in a war (1812) that tested our mettle. That's cool enough. I, for one, have much more problem with The Pledge: the "....liberty and justice for all" kinda sticks in my craw. |
Really? I almost reference the Mother Theresa thread, but didn't have time to respond yesterday. I feel like this is an "issue" I've wrestled with plenty over the years. We tend to put heroes up on a pedestal and remember their good works, and forget that they're human, and that humans are imperfect. So do we take the good and condemn the bad? Do we forget the good because of the bad?
Just recently we had this discussion in the Bill Cosby thread. There are a lot of young men (and women) who were genuinely inspired by what Mr. Cosby and the Cosby Show represented about what they could achieve and hoping for a better life. There was more than one article when the media finally listened to the rape accusations where a young man mused about holding onto the good that they took from it, while still condemning the man.
So, Mother Theresa as a symbol has inspired many to genuinely help the poor. Did Mother Theresa the person really do that much good or not? And does that diminish her importance to some as a symbol?
I had this conversation with a brother about Wagner. I like (or at least find familiar) many of his compositions. Was he a Nazi? A product of his time? Espousing public views that kept him alive? I don't know. But that doesn't quite change how I feel when I hear a certain piece of music, which seems to transcend who he was as a person for good or ill.
These are just three examples I came up with off the top of my head in a matter of seconds. I think it's a part of the human condition to have to wrestle with these disparate themes. It's certainly not something that's isolated to one or two instances.
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pilight
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| Posted: 08/30/16 2:08 pm ::: |
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Nobody's perfect, we've all lost and we've all lied
Most of us have cheated, the rest of us have tried
The holiest of holies even slip from time to time
We've all got dirty laundry hangin' on the line
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 08/30/16 2:43 pm ::: |
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I don't understand why the worth of works of art or tangible things should be linked to the morality or worth of the author or inventor.
There are plenty of authors, inventors, artists, and musicians who were not good people. But their creations have inherent beauty or value that is not diminished by the flaws of their creator.
Would you refuse to look at the Mona Lisa or The Thinker, or to fly in an airplane or turn on a lightbulb, if you determined da Vinci, Rodin, Wright or Edison were bad people?
Do you have any idea what Bach or Chopin or Haydn or Vivaldi were like as people? Do you care? Does it affect your enjoyment of their musical compositions?
Would you refuse to take Penicillin next time you're ill if you were to learn that Alexander Fleming was a racist bastard?
Henry Ford and Steve Jobs were not nice people, so are you going to get rid of your Mustang and your iPhone? They're long gone. Your rejection of their product has no effect at all on their beliefs or conduct.
Either the song is good or it's not. It stands or falls on its own merits. I fail to see what difference it makes whether we like or approve of the life of the author 200 years ago.
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Howee
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| Posted: 08/30/16 3:57 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Either the song is good or it's not. It stands or falls on its own merits. I fail to see what difference it makes whether we like or approve of the life of the author 200 years ago. |
I s'pose that's the general truth of it all, simply put. Key's acquaintances may have had plenty of stories to tell about his "bad" side, but since we didn't know him ourselves, maybe it's acceptable to just enjoy his song on its own merits.
Same deal with Wagner: if his music is inspiring/beautiful/etc., what do his (now irrelevant) political leanings matter? Some saw him as racist, and claim that was evident in his work. Like Key, I think it's obvious that history has remembered Wagner's positives instead of the negatives, no?
<Sigh!> I never quit loving my "Little Black Sambo" storybook, even when I was grown up. I don't care if he'd been purple, I just loved the story. Fortunately, I have no legacy of world importance for people to decide if my racism overshadows it all.
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Richard 77
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| Posted: 08/30/16 6:07 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Either the song is good or it's not. It stands or falls on its own merits. I fail to see what difference it makes whether we like or approve of the life of the author 200 years ago. |
I s'pose that's the general truth of it all, simply put. Key's acquaintances may have had plenty of stories to tell about his "bad" side, but since we didn't know him ourselves, maybe it's acceptable to just enjoy his song on its own merits.
Same deal with Wagner: if his music is inspiring/beautiful/etc., what do his (now irrelevant) political leanings matter? Some saw him as racist, and claim that was evident in his work. Like Key, I think it's obvious that history has remembered Wagner's positives instead of the negatives, no?
<Sigh!> I never quit loving my "Little Black Sambo" storybook, even when I was grown up. I don't care if he'd been purple, I just loved the story. Fortunately, I have no legacy of world importance for people to decide if my racism overshadows it all. |
My maternal grandparents had Sambo too. As a kid, it was just a good story, and all I saw of the character was a kid. Didn't matter what the kid's skin was to me, he survived the tigers and that's all that mattered to me. I wonder what its origins are..._________________ If you cannot inspire yourself to read a book about women's basketball, or any book about women's sports, you cannot inspire any young girl or boy to write a book about them. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/Richardstrek |
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Ex-Ref
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| Posted: 09/05/16 1:01 am ::: |
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Megan Rapinoe kneels in support.
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| Being a gay American, I know what it means to look at the flag and not have it protect all of your liberties. It was something small that I could do and something that I plan to keep doing in the future and hopefully spark some meaningful conversation around it. It's important to have white people stand in support of people of color on this. We don't need to be the leading voice, of course, but standing in support of them is something that's really powerful. |
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/soccer/2016/09/04/soccer-star-rapinoe-knells-during-national-anthem/89875384/
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pilight
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justintyme
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| Posted: 09/07/16 7:31 pm ::: |
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Good to see that athletic events are going for the "safe space" mentality now too.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 09/07/16 7:46 pm ::: |
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| if we're lucky, maybe the stupid tradition will end.
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norwester
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| Posted: 09/08/16 11:39 am ::: |
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| justintyme wrote: |
Good to see that athletic events are going for the "safe space" mentality now too. |
It's funny, because now this is what's getting a bunch of press. Probably more than her kneeling again would. And reportedly got a lot of backlash in the stands at the game itself (which I haven't confirmed, but which one commenter on the article I link below describes). So instead of just letting something that offended him blow by, he's drawn more positive attention to it. This entertains me.
Rapinoe rips soccer team owner after he plays National Anthem while teams in locker room
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pilight
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| Posted: 09/08/16 7:39 pm ::: |
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| Broncos linebacker Brandon Marshall took a knee during the anthem for the NFL's opening game
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