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Gold: USA vs Spain - 8/20/16
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zvyn3



Joined: 20 Jul 2013
Posts: 406
Location: Tennessee


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PostPosted: 08/27/16 9:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Do you really believe Geno has never had an argument with Taurasi?


Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 08/27/16 10:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why lock the thread because of one person who's already violated terms? Because they have a right to be upset? A championship game thread should never have to be locked.



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jmpenn90



Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: 08/27/16 11:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Why lock the thread because of one person who's already violated terms? Because they have a right to be upset? A championship game thread should never have to be locked.

One person? Muliple posters have violated terms in this thread. And I agree with locking the thread. I don't think posters are going to come close to agreeing.


Nerd2



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 08/28/16 12:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Never mind. No longer relevant.


boogiezen



Joined: 29 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 08/28/16 6:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zvyn3 wrote:
boogiezen wrote:
^GET OVER IT.


I'm not going to get over it. Maybe you should get over your irrational hatred of Candace Parker.


Ok. Keep b!tching. Laughing



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zvyn3



Joined: 20 Jul 2013
Posts: 406
Location: Tennessee


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PostPosted: 08/28/16 11:11 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
zvyn3 wrote:
boogiezen wrote:
^GET OVER IT.


I'm not going to get over it. Maybe you should get over your irrational hatred of Candace Parker.


At this point, the irrationality is yours. Multiple people have pointed out many things and your only answer it to christen us all UConn supporters who have a hatred of Parker based on a game 9 years ago. Given that UConn has had wild success since then while Tennessee has dropped to not even the best in its own conference, I'd say the only one holding on to old hatreds is you.

I watched Candace play last night and saw the same pouty, me-first player I always did. Nneka Ogwumike is the best player on the Sparks team right now and deserves much of the credit for where that team is. Candace was finally pulled in favor of Jantel Lavender. She had the worst defensive rating of any of the starters yesterday and the worst offensive rating of anyone who played last night.


Me-first but let the team in assists --- again. Funny how that happens, isn't it? You know the last time a post player averaged as many assists as she is right now? That's right --- NEVER. If Nneka deserves all the credit then why couldn't they win more than 3 games without Candace last year? And then they went 11-5 when she came back. Interesting.


zvyn3



Joined: 20 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 08/28/16 11:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ever since Geno Auriemma made the idiotic and vindictive decision to exclude Candace Parker from the Olympic team, people have been using it as an opportunity to engage in character assassination and make up all kinds of ridiculous lies, false rumors, accusations, and criticisms that are just downright stupid (calling her selfish, etc.). It's nothing but a smear campaign that has been pushed by opposing fans for years, that the situation has been ignited, which I'm sure is exactly what Geno Auriemma wanted. It's not fair to her, and it's not fair to everyone else involved. I'm guessing a lot these people haven't watched her play, because if they have I don't see how they could possibly believe the things they say about her. Nobody has been able to provide a source to prove anything they've said. I believe what I've seen and know, and I've never seen anything to make me believe that she's anything other than a fantastic player and teammate that would make any team much better and that anyone should love to have on their team (especially when you're trying to build the best team possible). I didn't mean to anger anybody, but I simply felt the need to explain my point of view. I apologize if I went overboard. There. I'm done. BYE.


linkster



Joined: 27 Jul 2012
Posts: 2652



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PostPosted: 08/28/16 3:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zvyn3 wrote:
Ever since Geno Auriemma made the idiotic and vindictive decision to exclude Candace Parker from the Olympic team, people have been using it as an opportunity to engage in character assassination and make up all kinds of ridiculous lies, false rumors, accusations, and criticisms that are just downright stupid (calling her selfish, etc.). It's nothing but a smear campaign that has been pushed by opposing fans for years, that the situation has been ignited, which I'm sure is exactly what Geno Auriemma wanted. It's not fair to her, and it's not fair to everyone else involved. I'm guessing a lot these people haven't watched her play, because if they have I don't see how they could possibly believe the things they say about her. Nobody has been able to provide a source to prove anything they've said. I believe what I've seen and know, and I've never seen anything to make me believe that she's anything other than a fantastic player and teammate that would make any team much better and that anyone should love to have on their team (especially when you're trying to build the best team possible). I didn't mean to anger anybody, but I simply felt the need to explain my point of view. I apologize if I went overboard. There. I'm done. BYE.


Quote:
Ever since Geno Auriemma made the idiotic and vindictive decision...


What evidence is there that the decision was either idiotic or vindictive? I've yet to see even one bit of actual evidence that Auriemma and the committee "had it in for" Parker. All I read are unsupported accusations from those who think she poops vanilla ice cream.


Quote:
people have been using it as an opportunity to engage in character assassination and make up all kinds of ridiculous lies, false rumors, accusations, and criticisms that are just downright stupid


I always defer to LV fans when it comes to these tactics. They have been using all of the above tactics to smear Pat's nemesis for over 10 years.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 11289



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PostPosted: 08/28/16 4:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:

What evidence is there that the decision was either idiotic or vindictive? I've yet to see even one bit of actual evidence that Auriemma and the committee "had it in for" Parker. All I read are unsupported accusations from those who think she poops vanilla ice cream.


When the player is one of the top three players in the WNBA (as Parker plainly is) I think it's incumbent upon those trying to defend what, on its face, is bizarre and unjustifiable, to provide a rationale response beyond nonsense like "she's a troublemaker/malcontent/doesn't play well with others".

Her history on the National team doesn't even to begin to support the characterizations that the haters have ascribed to her. Given her history on the team and her standing in the game, the default would plainly be that she would be on the team in the absence of a damn good reason for her to be left home. In the absence of that compelling and rational explanation, it's not surprising that others point to politics, cronyism and personal bias as reasons to fill the void.

So we eagerly await your rational and fully supported explanation for her exclusion.


Nerd2



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 08/28/16 4:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:

What evidence is there that the decision was either idiotic or vindictive? I've yet to see even one bit of actual evidence that Auriemma and the committee "had it in for" Parker. All I read are unsupported accusations from those who think she poops vanilla ice cream.


Given the wealth of anecdotes that Geno was incredibly supportive of Elene Delle Donne and Pat Summitt, it seems out of character for him. His only goal was to build a team that would win gold.

The US's toughest test IMO was Japan, a disciplined team who could kill you from the outside. The 2016 team was going to be a bit sketchy on perimeter defense and Angel McCoughtry and Maya Moore were really fun to watch because of their defensive effort. I was surprised to realize that Seimone has become quite an adequate defender as well. It was a great luxury to be able to start both Griner and Charles and I will be very curious to see if that continues two years from now.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 11289



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PostPosted: 08/28/16 4:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
His only goal was to build a team that would win gold.


That is so unrealistic that it doesn't ring true at all.

Are you seriously suggesting that having Parker on the team would have threatened the US's gold medal chances? Seriously? Is that really your position?

The stark reality is that you could have put the top 30 or maybe even top 50 US players' names in a hat and drawn 12 and won gold. And given that reality, the actual choice was about who to anoint with the gift of a gold medal far more than any question about winning or losing the tournament.

And by the way, if the ONLY issue was winning a gold medal, you would never have gambled on a player who, at the time of the selections, had never played one second of professional basketball. You would have chosen for that spot one of the many excellent available players who had proven herself in the WNBA and international professional play against the caliber of players that the US would be facing. So plainly there were other factors at work other than agonizing over winning the gold medal.


jmpenn90



Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 404



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PostPosted: 08/28/16 4:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
linkster wrote:

What evidence is there that the decision was either idiotic or vindictive? I've yet to see even one bit of actual evidence that Auriemma and the committee "had it in for" Parker. All I read are unsupported accusations from those who think she poops vanilla ice cream.


Given the wealth of anecdotes that Geno was incredibly supportive of Elene Delle Donne and Pat Summitt, it seems out of character for him. His only goal was to build a team that would win gold.

The US's toughest test IMO was Japan, a disciplined team who could kill you from the outside. The 2016 team was going to be a bit sketchy on perimeter defense and Angel McCoughtry and Maya Moore were really fun to watch because of their defensive effort. I was surprised to realize that Seimone has become quite an adequate defender as well. It was a great luxury to be able to start both Griner and Charles and I will be very curious to see if that continues two years from now.

I don't think using his relationship with Pat Summitt is a good way to show that he isn't vindictive. He finally stopped being vindictive after she got sick and then passed away. Before that their relationship goes more to show that he definitely can be vindictive. He also has been vindictive to players that have transferred from uconn. Instead of just wishing them well he usually insults them. US was always going to win gold and Geno even said that one of his goals this time was to enjoy it more and I think he wanted the players that he had more fun with and enjoyed more. And that didn't include a former TN player that outplayed some of his uconn players in London


Nerd2



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 7277



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PostPosted: 08/28/16 5:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:

That is so unrealistic that it doesn't ring true at all.

Are you seriously suggesting that having Parker on the team would have threatened the US's gold medal chances? Seriously? Is that really your position?


No, my position is that even without Parker on the team they could - and did - assemble a squad capable of winning the gold. And one of the things I was wondering was where Parker was going to fit in the rotation anyway. Between Elena and Tina Charles, you have two younger players who were going to get a lot of time at the same position that Parker played.

Stewart was on the 2014 World Championship team and therefore had international experience. She was also used primarily for defense which is Parker's weakest skill. Elena Delle Donne and Brittney Griner were going to make the team regardless. So there was not exactly a lot of risk involved in assembling the squad that they did.

[/quote]


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 11289



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PostPosted: 08/28/16 5:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:

No, my position is that even without Parker on the team they could - and did - assemble a squad capable of winning the gold.



Which could also could have been done without Moore, Bird, Charles, Della Donne, Taurasi, Bird, or anybody else on the team. So that position proves bupkis. Indeed you could have won gold without all of them. You could have sent the select team and won Gold by double digits every game.

And Stewart didn't prove herself playing scarce minutes in the World Championships. Particularly in contrast to players with entire seasons of WNBA and international professional play.

Heck, Sims has both that World Champion!pionship experience AND WNBA experience. Guess she should have been included.

Really I hope you have better arguments than you've presented so far. Otherwise politics, cronyism and personal bias remain the most obvious.


Nerd2



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 7277



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PostPosted: 08/28/16 5:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jmpenn90 wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:
linkster wrote:

What evidence is there that the decision was either idiotic or vindictive? I've yet to see even one bit of actual evidence that Auriemma and the committee "had it in for" Parker. All I read are unsupported accusations from those who think she poops vanilla ice cream.


Given the wealth of anecdotes that Geno was incredibly supportive of Elene Delle Donne and Pat Summitt, it seems out of character for him. His only goal was to build a team that would win gold.

The US's toughest test IMO was Japan, a disciplined team who could kill you from the outside. The 2016 team was going to be a bit sketchy on perimeter defense and Angel McCoughtry and Maya Moore were really fun to watch because of their defensive effort. I was surprised to realize that Seimone has become quite an adequate defender as well. It was a great luxury to be able to start both Griner and Charles and I will be very curious to see if that continues two years from now.

I don't think using his relationship with Pat Summitt is a good way to show that he isn't vindictive. He finally stopped being vindictive after she got sick and then passed away. Before that their relationship goes more to show that he definitely can be vindictive. He also has been vindictive to players that have transferred from uconn. Instead of just wishing them well he usually insults them. US was always going to win gold and Geno even said that one of his goals this time was to enjoy it more and I think he wanted the players that he had more fun with and enjoyed more. And that didn't include a former TN player that outplayed some of his uconn players in London


Actually, I hope that's not true. Because if it is, then Parker is done with USA Basketball. Charles, Delle Donne and Stewart are younger and showed that they can carry the team into the future. And, with EDD as the reigning MVP, Charles in the mix for MVP this year and Stewart already showing MVP form, it could easily be argued that they will be the better choices starting in 2018.

Part of what my sources told me was that the REAL power of USA Basketball is the administrators who have been there for decades and control the entire pipeline. Carol Callan has been a vital cog in the process for many years. Renee Brown has been involved as well. I am not sure if it was them or some others but I was told that they REALLY wanted Delle Donne and Stewart on the team to start that next-generation turnover.


WfanFrJmp



Joined: 24 May 2016
Posts: 477



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PostPosted: 08/28/16 5:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:
His only goal was to build a team that would win gold.


That is so unrealistic that it doesn't ring true at all.

Are you seriously suggesting that having Parker on the team would have threatened the US's gold medal chances? Seriously? Is that really your position?

The stark reality is that you could have put the top 30 or maybe even top 50 US players' names in a hat and drawn 12 and won gold. And given that reality, the actual choice was about who to anoint with the gift of a gold medal far more than any question about winning or losing the tournament.

And by the way, if the ONLY issue was winning a gold medal, you would never have gambled on a player who, at the time of the selections, had never played one second of professional basketball. You would have chosen for that spot one of the many excellent available players who had proven herself in the WNBA and international professional play against the caliber of players that the US would be facing. So plainly there were other factors at work other than agonizing over winning the gold medal.


Agreed, the squad was going to win regardless!

Just to add to this:

Please note that the 75% of the 2016 team matriculated over from the 2012 squad and even with only playing 9.5 players, they still beat their opponents by a margin similar to the 2016 squad. The only 2012 player in the 2016 pool who didn't make it is the player in question. As we've noted, that player was the tourney MVP, led the team in blocks and rebounds and then last year in the pre-Olympic European tour, led in nearly every statistical category. Further, she was used in multiple advertisements for Rio, including after the Olympics began. Clearly many people thought it was a given that she would be there and it took them a while to clue them in....If anyone looks at that without being biased by who that player is, I think it is obvious why there has been such anger about this. What pissed me off even more was the reason they gave....and that fact that, well imho, they hardly did anything to prepare for the future of Team USA and no disrespect to anyone, opted instead to "create" these historical moments..... Nearly half of the team will be gone the next go round! Thankfully we have the world championships to get some new guards in the rotation and up to speed.

With that being said, the US is so incredibly deep that the committee has the luxury of taking whoever they want and that is absolutely what they did. What is funny is that team USA is all about each player staying in their role. The schemes don't require that players have diverse skill sets. So why not field a team with solid role players? Why are the Olympics only reserved for "certain" players and others really don't have a fighting chance of making the squad? So many of the ladies dream of going to the Olympics and get their hopes dashed that it will never be; that's why some go play for other countries. The whole thing is very political whether we like it or not and some blatant things like this, the Becky Hammon situation and even listening to Candice Wiggins tend to bring it to light.


Nerd2



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 08/28/16 5:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:

No, my position is that even without Parker on the team they could - and did - assemble a squad capable of winning the gold.



Which could also could have been done without Moore, Bird, Charles, Della Donne, Taurasi, Bird, or anybody else on the team. So that position proves bupkis. Indeed you could have won gold without all of them. You could have sent the select team and won Gold by double digits every game.

And Stewart didn't prove herself playing scarce minutes in the World Championships. Particularly in contrast to players with entire seasons of WNBA and international professional play.

Heck, Sims has both that World Champion!pionship experience AND WNBA experience. Guess she should have been included.

Really I hope you have better arguments than you've presented so far. Otherwise politics, cronyism and personal bias remain the most obvious.


I never denied that those three items factored into it. But you believe that they were the only reasons and are not believing what I said people told me. And that's fine. The people who were chosen won the gold so the choices were not wrong. Time will tell whether she makes a future squad or not.


jmpenn90



Joined: 09 May 2008
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PostPosted: 08/28/16 5:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Nerd2 wrote:
jmpenn90 wrote:
Nerd2 wrote:
linkster wrote:

What evidence is there that the decision was either idiotic or vindictive? I've yet to see even one bit of actual evidence that Auriemma and the committee "had it in for" Parker. All I read are unsupported accusations from those who think she poops vanilla ice cream.


Given the wealth of anecdotes that Geno was incredibly supportive of Elene Delle Donne and Pat Summitt, it seems out of character for him. His only goal was to build a team that would win gold.

The US's toughest test IMO was Japan, a disciplined team who could kill you from the outside. The 2016 team was going to be a bit sketchy on perimeter defense and Angel McCoughtry and Maya Moore were really fun to watch because of their defensive effort. I was surprised to realize that Seimone has become quite an adequate defender as well. It was a great luxury to be able to start both Griner and Charles and I will be very curious to see if that continues two years from now.

I don't think using his relationship with Pat Summitt is a good way to show that he isn't vindictive. He finally stopped being vindictive after she got sick and then passed away. Before that their relationship goes more to show that he definitely can be vindictive. He also has been vindictive to players that have transferred from uconn. Instead of just wishing them well he usually insults them. US was always going to win gold and Geno even said that one of his goals this time was to enjoy it more and I think he wanted the players that he had more fun with and enjoyed more. And that didn't include a former TN player that outplayed some of his uconn players in London


Actually, I hope that's not true. Because if it is, then Parker is done with USA Basketball. Charles, Delle Donne and Stewart are younger and showed that they can carry the team into the future. And, with EDD as the reigning MVP, Charles in the mix for MVP this year and Stewart already showing MVP form, it could easily be argued that they will be the better choices starting in 2018.

Part of what my sources told me was that the REAL power of USA Basketball is the administrators who have been there for decades and control the entire pipeline. Carol Callan has been a vital cog in the process for many years. Renee Brown has been involved as well. I am not sure if it was them or some others but I was told that they REALLY wanted Delle Donne and Stewart on the team to start that next-generation turnover.

And yet they didn't care to add any young guards to start that next-generation turnover and that position is more critical. That same Carol Callan who gave Geno a very long hug once they won. I'm sure she let him pick who he wanted. It seems like she worships the guy even though he was accused of sexual harassment after London. That didn't seem to bother them at all.


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