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Why WNBA MVP Elena Delle Donne wants to lower the rims
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Youth Coach



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PostPosted: 03/19/16 4:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Instead of changing fundamental rules and conventions of the game to satisfy a very small segment of people or chasing fans you will NEVER get, why not focus on forcing the players to RAISE their game.

#NoLoweringTheRim.
Luuuc
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PostPosted: 03/19/16 7:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Youth Coach wrote:
Instead of changing fundamental rules and conventions of the game to satisfy a very small segment of people or chasing fans you will NEVER get, why not focus on forcing the players to RAISE their game.

#NoLoweringTheRim.


Not that I'm in favour of it, but at least lowering the rims is a measure that is physically possible and would have a fairly predictable cost to do. What effect it would have on the game and the audience is really just speculation at this point. Hard to know for sure until it is tried.
I'm very interested to hear how the league would go about "forcing the players to raise their game" though. Some kind of KPIs? Brittney, you need to average 9 boards & 4 blocks per game or else we're kicking you out of the league. Shoni, drop 5 lbs per month or else you don't get paid.
#LetsBeRealistic



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tfan



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PostPosted: 03/19/16 9:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Delle Donne was quoted in the USA Today piece as talking about wanting the female players to be able to "play above the rim". Which I assume is a reference to dunking.

But Auriemma, when he called for it, talked about "offensive efficiency".

Quote:
"Now there would be fewer missed layups because the players are actually at the rim [when they shoot]. Shooting percentages go up. There would be more tip-ins.

"What makes fans not want to watch women's basketball is that some of the players can't shoot and they miss layups and that forces the game to slow down," he said.


Although his 7.2 inches does not take into account the longer arms taller players have and the significantly higher jumping ability of men. The lowering would need to be much more than 7.2 inches to get the players as close to the basket as men when taking a layup.

Auriemma made an Adam Silverish comment ("It's not where we thought it would be") when calling for the change.

Quote:
"The game hasn't grown as much as it should in the last 10 years and much of the old guard doesn't want to hear it," Auriemma said Monday after taping "Beyond The Beat," which airs Tuesday on CPTV Sports. "In 2002, we played the Final Four in front of 30,000 at the Alamodome in San Antonio. "Now, 10 years later [2011], we [the women's Final Four] can't sell out the Conseco Field House [in Indianapolis]? So how much has the game possibly improved, in terms of how badly people want to see it?"


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 03/20/16 6:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This article is about the tennis world, not basketball. But to me it says a lot about resistance to women's basketball and the WNBA, thanks to the open misogyny of an important tennis executive. Note also the great response from Serena Williams:

http://www.foxsports.com/tennis/story/raymond-moore-indian-wells-comments-mens-womens-tennis-get-on-knees-thank-federer-032016?cmpid=tsmfb:fscom:foxsports



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tfan



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PostPosted: 03/20/16 6:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
The heart of resistance to women's basketball in the U.S. isn't the fact that many NBA players can dunk while few WNBA players can. It's sexism, misogyny, racism, and homophobia, often intertwined. I'm with all those who've made many valuable points above about why this "solution" is completely bogus.


There is also the issue that the women aren't as good as the men. People don't watch minor league baseball that much and for only one reason - they aren't as good as major league baseball. So the talent disparity could be the biggest part of why the WNBA is not that popular relative to the NBA.


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PostPosted: 03/20/16 6:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
The heart of resistance to women's basketball in the U.S. isn't the fact that many NBA players can dunk while few WNBA players can. It's sexism, misogyny, racism, and homophobia, often intertwined. I'm with all those who've made many valuable points above about why this "solution" is completely bogus.


There is also the issue that the women aren't as good as the men. People don't watch minor league baseball that much and for only one reason - they aren't as good as major league baseball. So the talent disparity could be the biggest part of why the WNBA is not that popular relative to the NBA.


How ironic to be arguing that on a basketball website right in the height of March Madness. A hell of a lot of people (mostly men, but surely a good number of women) watch men's college basketball even though the players aren't as good as NBA players. Sorry, but to me--even though NBA players are surely better than WNBA players--this is a bogus explanation for the problems that women's sports face in a misogynist culture.



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tfan



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PostPosted: 03/20/16 7:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
The heart of resistance to women's basketball in the U.S. isn't the fact that many NBA players can dunk while few WNBA players can. It's sexism, misogyny, racism, and homophobia, often intertwined. I'm with all those who've made many valuable points above about why this "solution" is completely bogus.


There is also the issue that the women aren't as good as the men. People don't watch minor league baseball that much and for only one reason - they aren't as good as major league baseball. So the talent disparity could be the biggest part of why the WNBA is not that popular relative to the NBA.


How ironic to be arguing that on a basketball website right in the height of March Madness. A hell of a lot of people (mostly men, but surely a good number of women) watch men's college basketball even though the players aren't as good as NBA players. Sorry, but to me--even though NBA players are surely better than WNBA players--this is a bogus explanation for the problems that women's sports face in a misogynist culture.


Men's college football and basketball draw well. But it isn't a pro league with inferior players. It's a college-affiliated student athlete competition. The college affiliation fires people up. Which is why the Women's NCAA Final in 2015 drew 3.1 million viewers and the Lynx/Fever final telecasts that year were under 600,000 viewers. The players in men's March Madness - a one and done national college-affiliated tournament, are also better than WNBA players.

Yes there is resistance to watching women play sports. Watching lesbian women, watching black women, watching lesbian black women play sports. But I don't think it should be stated like those are the only reasons. It just leads to extra bitterness if it isn't also added that the women aren't as good as the men.

With regard to homophobia, since so few of the WNBA players are out and even for those that are, they don't announce it at the arena or on the broadcast - I don't see how the fans would know the players are lesbians. But there would be a resistance to watching women who act in a more butch manner, regardless of sexual persuasion.




Last edited by tfan on 03/20/16 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 03/20/16 7:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
tfan wrote:
Bob Lamm wrote:
The heart of resistance to women's basketball in the U.S. isn't the fact that many NBA players can dunk while few WNBA players can. It's sexism, misogyny, racism, and homophobia, often intertwined. I'm with all those who've made many valuable points above about why this "solution" is completely bogus.


There is also the issue that the women aren't as good as the men. People don't watch minor league baseball that much and for only one reason - they aren't as good as major league baseball. So the talent disparity could be the biggest part of why the WNBA is not that popular relative to the NBA.


How ironic to be arguing that on a basketball website right in the height of March Madness. A hell of a lot of people (mostly men, but surely a good number of women) watch men's college basketball even though the players aren't as good as NBA players. Sorry, but to me--even though NBA players are surely better than WNBA players--this is a bogus explanation for the problems that women's sports face in a misogynist culture.


Men's college football and basketball draw well. But it isn't a pro league with inferior players. It's a college-affiliated student athlete competition. The college affiliation fires people up. The players in March Madness - a one and done national college-affiliated tournament, are also better than WNBA players.

Yes there is resistance to watching women, watching lesbian women, watching black women, watching lesbian black women play sports. But I don't think it should be stated like those are the only reasons. It just leads to extra bitterness if it isn't also added that the women aren't as good as the men.

With regard to homophobia, since so few of the WNBA players are out and even for those that are, they don't announce it at the arena or on the broadcast - I don't see how the fans would know the players are lesbians. But there would be a resistance to watching women who act in a more butch manner, regardless of sexual persuasion.


I never said that sexism, misogyny, racism, and homophobia are the ONLY reasons why there is resistance to the WNBA or women's sports.

As for homophobia, the issue isn't how many players in the WNBA are lesbians or how many are out lesbians. The issue that that lots of homophobic fans (especially men) view all female athletes as lesbians. It doesn't matter what the homophobes "know." What matters is their ignorance and bigotry.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 03/22/16 11:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Mo Currie weighs in

http://www.womensbasketball247.com/2016/03/womens-basketball-lower-rim/

Quote:
So if you were watching a WNBA game and Angel McCoughtry came down the middle of the lane and slam dunks I think you would jump out of your seat in excitement rather than sit back and frown and say, well the rim isnt at ten feet.



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Michelle89



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PostPosted: 03/22/16 12:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Mo Currie weighs in

http://www.womensbasketball247.com/2016/03/womens-basketball-lower-rim/

Quote:
So if you were watching a WNBA game and Angel McCoughtry came down the middle of the lane and slam dunks I think you would jump out of your seat in excitement rather than sit back and frown and say, well the rim isnt at ten feet.


I jump at my seet when she finally hits a jumper too though Laughing
Its not about the people that are already watching. Would people that dont watch the WNBA and hear that Angel just dunked, would watch the wnba because of that dunk? Or go to see a game because of that dunk.
Are more people coming to see the Mercury because Griner can dunk?



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PostPosted: 03/22/16 1:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If Angel just went over the edge of rim -- a dunk you see all the time in men's NCAA and the NBA -- I don't think anyone would do anything. But if she came down the lane and windmilled one home, then yes, I'd get excited.

But we'll need a rim lower than 9 feet for anything like that to happen.



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NYL_WNBA_FAN



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PostPosted: 03/22/16 2:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think there's plenty of aspects of women's pro basketball that make it a better watch...for me...than the men's side. The focus in these discussions is so much on what they can't do that the tendency is to forget what they can do or what made us fans in the first place. No, they don't jump as high and no, they don't have the upper body strength of men. But to me, that makes the degree of difficulty of the shots that they do make very high. As a person who has limited upper body strength myself, I know how hard it is to make baskets when you have limited upper body strength and limited jumping ability. So I have an appreciation for the shots they do make because those shots generally are not as easy to make as they would be for the 6'5" male with a 35" vertical leap. I don't think it makes the men better players than the women per se. I just look at it as the men have athletic differences in their game.

People who feel that it makes the men so much better that they won't watch the women's game aren't going to watch because we lower the rims. If anything, that will increase the disdain.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 03/30/16 9:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://espn.go.com/espnw/voices/article/15090920/fagan-why-lower-rims-women-basketball-flawed

Quote:
Phoenix star guard Diana Taurasi didn't mince words when asked her opinion on lowering the rims. The Olympic gold medalist, currently playing in Russia, said the following: "Might as well put us in skirts and back in the kitchen."



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PostPosted: 03/30/16 9:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I never thought I'd be cheering for Taurasi. Laughing



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PostPosted: 03/30/16 12:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Taurasi has such a way with words. Even as a Lynx fan, I can't but help love her. Laughing

Beyond that comment, the entire article is spot on. We know exactly how people would respond to the new rims. We have seen it before with the smaller ball.

The woman's game needs to continue to grow in a way that is germane only to itself. Trying to clone the men's game is not the fix. Even the men's game didn't become what it is today over night. Maybe it will take 30 more years, but if they keep plugging away and allow society to catch up, it will succeed.



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Michelle89



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PostPosted: 03/30/16 1:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
http://espn.go.com/espnw/voices/article/15090920/fagan-why-lower-rims-women-basketball-flawed

Quote:
Phoenix star guard Diana Taurasi didn't mince words when asked her opinion on lowering the rims. The Olympic gold medalist, currently playing in Russia, said the following: "Might as well put us in skirts and back in the kitchen."


Tell them Dee Laughing Nice to see that she doesnt agree with Geno on this one.



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PostPosted: 03/30/16 1:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Michelle89 wrote:
pilight wrote:
http://espn.go.com/espnw/voices/article/15090920/fagan-why-lower-rims-women-basketball-flawed

Quote:
Phoenix star guard Diana Taurasi didn't mince words when asked her opinion on lowering the rims. The Olympic gold medalist, currently playing in Russia, said the following: "Might as well put us in skirts and back in the kitchen."


Tell them Dee Laughing Nice to see that she doesnt agree with Geno on this one.


Lets not forget that Elena said it also. Personally, I wish she had not, but she did. This issue needs to be debated and let ALL THE ISSUES laid out on the table. I would not of stated my reasons for being against lowering the rim the way Diana did but she hit on the same reasons I am against this decision.


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PostPosted: 03/30/16 5:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Im not saying the W should lower the rims, but it wouldn't hurt to test it out during a preseason game.



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PostPosted: 03/30/16 5:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Elena Delle Donne slams Diana Taurasi over quip about sending women back to the kitchen
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/03/elena-delle-donne-diana-taurasi-lowering-hoops

Quote:
I respect Diana so much, I think what shes done for our game is phenomenal, she said. But I definitely disagree with what she said. The biggest issue I have with what she said is how degrading that is to women athletes in general because when you look at sports mens and womens sports volleyball, the nets are lower; golf, womens tees are closer. And if you want to talk about Serena Williams, she plays less sets than the men so are you going to tell her to put a skirt on and go back to the kitchen?


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PostPosted: 03/30/16 6:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:
Elena Delle Donne slams Diana Taurasi over quip about sending women back to the kitchen
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/03/elena-delle-donne-diana-taurasi-lowering-hoops

Quote:
I respect Diana so much, I think what shes done for our game is phenomenal, she said. But I definitely disagree with what she said. The biggest issue I have with what she said is how degrading that is to women athletes in general because when you look at sports mens and womens sports volleyball, the nets are lower; golf, womens tees are closer. And if you want to talk about Serena Williams, she plays less sets than the men so are you going to tell her to put a skirt on and go back to the kitchen?


Sorry Elena. I am with Diana on this one.



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PostPosted: 03/30/16 6:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Genero36 wrote:
miller40 wrote:
Elena Delle Donne slams Diana Taurasi over quip about sending women back to the kitchen
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/03/elena-delle-donne-diana-taurasi-lowering-hoops

Quote:
I respect Diana so much, I think what shes done for our game is phenomenal, she said. But I definitely disagree with what she said. The biggest issue I have with what she said is how degrading that is to women athletes in general because when you look at sports mens and womens sports volleyball, the nets are lower; golf, womens tees are closer. And if you want to talk about Serena Williams, she plays less sets than the men so are you going to tell her to put a skirt on and go back to the kitchen?


Sorry Elena. I am with Diana on this one.


me too.



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PostPosted: 03/30/16 6:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

miller40 wrote:
Elena Delle Donne slams Diana Taurasi over quip about sending women back to the kitchen
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/03/elena-delle-donne-diana-taurasi-lowering-hoops

Quote:
I respect Diana so much, I think what shes done for our game is phenomenal, she said. But I definitely disagree with what she said. The biggest issue I have with what she said is how degrading that is to women athletes in general because when you look at sports mens and womens sports volleyball, the nets are lower; golf, womens tees are closer. And if you want to talk about Serena Williams, she plays less sets than the men so are you going to tell her to put a skirt on and go back to the kitchen?


Sorry Elena but...historically those limitations were placed on women because it was ASSUMED they couldn't do it. You may argue that overall women's athleticism is not on the level of men's. My counter argument is that because women as a gender have been held back athletically for so long its going to take awhile longer to reach their full physical potential. As more women push the boundaries of athletic performance, the better they'll become overall. Women are pushing the envelope all over. Not enough yet to consider it a norm but it's coming. Mark my words.
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PostPosted: 03/30/16 7:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I feel like Elena may need to invest in a sarcasm detector, or at least the ability to not take everything dead seriously.

Bless DT for shooting straight from the hip.



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PostPosted: 03/30/16 7:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

hyperetic wrote:
miller40 wrote:
Elena Delle Donne slams Diana Taurasi over quip about sending women back to the kitchen
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/03/elena-delle-donne-diana-taurasi-lowering-hoops

Quote:
I respect Diana so much, I think what shes done for our game is phenomenal, she said. But I definitely disagree with what she said. The biggest issue I have with what she said is how degrading that is to women athletes in general because when you look at sports mens and womens sports volleyball, the nets are lower; golf, womens tees are closer. And if you want to talk about Serena Williams, she plays less sets than the men so are you going to tell her to put a skirt on and go back to the kitchen?


Sorry Elena but...historically those limitations were placed on women because it was ASSUMED they couldn't do it. You may argue that overall women's athleticism is not on the level of men's. My counter argument is that because women as a gender have been held back athletically for so long its going to take awhile longer to reach their full physical potential. As more women push the boundaries of athletic performance, the better they'll become overall. Women are pushing the envelope all over. Not enough yet to consider it a norm but it's coming. Mark my words.

That is it exactly. Using these other sports as justification is a false equivalency. Each has their own reasons for doing what they do, and sexism plays a role in those also.

Volleyball is a bad example since it is essential that the nets be low enough for women to spike and block since that is essential to the game (as in the game would not work without it). Dunking is not that in basketball. Golf? That is twofold. One is that it is sexism-turned-tradition and the second is based on how par is determined for a course. And in tennis is there really a reason that women should play shorter matches than men? I have a feeling that if women had always played 5 sets and then suddenly there was talk about shortening their game to 3, people like Serena Williams would be calling foul. She might actually say something similar to what Dee just said.



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PostPosted: 03/30/16 7:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't really take a side in this. I get what Elena is saying and I think she is just offended that Diana would take her words that way even in a sarcastic way. As for Kate Fagen, she is known for stirring controversy with her interviews and articles. i.e. Sheryl Swoopes. I don't like her and I don't think she actually cares about the WNBA, only when she gets hits and can use it as clickbait.


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