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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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 Posted: 01/03/16 10:34 pm ::: Militia Take Over Federal Building in Oregon |
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Anger Over Response to Oregon Militants
No real law enforcement reaction. No one freaking out about terrorists. Is it because we think we understand them? Race? Religion? Interesting.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 01/03/16 11:43 pm ::: |
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| Could you imagine the response if a group of armed Muslims took it over?
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jammerbirdi
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pilight
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| Posted: 01/04/16 12:42 am ::: |
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| They're a street gang without a street.
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PUmatty
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jammerbirdi
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p_d_swanson
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sambista
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| Posted: 01/04/16 3:06 am ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
Really? Do you guys really just swallow whatever the Left says about everything? Terrorists? lol.
How many people did these asshats kill in a mass slaughter of innocent lives as folks were going about their business in America?
They're out in the sticks. So they also aren't a mass of hundreds looting and burning stores in a town or city.
I don't know a lot about their gripe but I'm sure I don't agree with much of it and I would bet they're probably battling with the government over money or land or grazing rights which is all money. We have protesters who disrupt all kinds of shit now in this country and YOU GUYS aren't griping that no one is putting a stop to those protests? Police didn't open fire on the crowds in Ferguson or Baltimore or Chicago. Do you have a problem with that? Then why do you have a problem that some crazy ranchers taking over some place in the middle of nowhere in protest and that there hasn't been an armed response to them? Because of racism. Or something.
So we're upset they're not being called terrorists now? They are AMERICANS. Your fellow Americans. They are NOT Muslim extremists or radicalized lone wolves plotting to blow people up at the Boston Marathon or open up with AR-15s on a holiday part FOR THE PURPOSE OF TERRORIZING AMERICA. Do you see the difference between these guys and radicalized Muslim extremists bent on inflicting terror here. You know, like they have been doing for decades around the world, taking countless lives.
SHEEZE people. 
Happy New Year. Let's get it on.  |
it's really interesting how you turned your kaleidoscope till it fit your perception of rebellion and imminent threat - or rather, until this incident didn't rise to the level of rebellion and imminent threat.
how do you know what they are or are not, and what they're plotting to do or not do? what if this was a group of americans who happened to be muslim, but their declared protest was about something having nothing to do with being muslim? would anyone believe it?
what if it was a group of american indians? do i have to ask what if it was a group of black people? or spanish-speaking, documented, migrant workers? would anyone stop for one second (before grabbing guns and other armament) and say, "oh, no big deal. they're in the middle of nowhere"?
an armed, anti-government group has taken over federal property. when doesn't that prompt a response?
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p_d_swanson
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jammerbirdi
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| Posted: 01/04/16 3:34 am ::: |
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| p_d_swanson wrote: |
Pierce: What's Happening in Oregon Is Nothing Less Than Armed Sedition
| Quote: |
| It is popular among these people who apparently have brains wired like short-wave radios broadcasting from upper Michigan to say that the real constitutional authority in this country resides in its local sheriffs. Well, the local sheriff in this case would like it very much if this particular invasive species would abandon his jurisdiction and go back to freeloading on federal lands in Nevada. |
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Clearly we now know what the "P' in Charles P. Pierce stands for. I won't use the word but just listen to this stuff.
"Anyone who argues that actual tyranny exists is a dangerous charlatan who should be mocked from the public square. Anyone who argues that there is out of political ambition, or for their own personal profit, should be shunned by decent people..."
Blah, blah, blah. MOCKED FROM THE PUBLIC SQUAH, I SAY! I wonder if he hears himself speaking in a Mid-Atlantic accent when he 'pens' that stuff. First, anyone who writes squealy skeared shit like this should certainly be mocked. Since we don't have literal public squares where that happens I hope it's okay that I utilize the internet message board to call out this paranoid punky drivel for what it is.
These guys out there in the woods far far away from everything and everyone shouldn't scare anyone. And we certainly shouldn't hope our government violently overreacts to take back the rest stop or whatever that thing is. That would really fuel a lot of anti-government paranoia in this country and no one is denying that there isn't way too much of that.
And this is exactly the kind of incident where we too often allow irresponsible people to ratchet up the drama till something bad happens. First there's the anti-government ranchers themselves. Then on the other side are the writers lifting phrasing and syntax from the Founders to make sure everyone understands just how 'serious' decent people should think this all is.
Eventually, these dudes will be arrested and they'll go away. This is not a movement. The Not Jolly Rancher Movement.
This is the offspring of Cliven Bundy? Am I wrong about that? Remember the plot line there? Anyone. EVERYONE took this guy seriously. The Republicans in DC, especially, and therefore the national news media. They gave him fame and propped him up as a hero to the individualist farmer/rancher American myth. Remember?
Then the really important part. He said some asshat racist bullshit. And that's when it happened. No, not the fact that the Republicans in Washington dropped him like he was hot. Although they did, of course. But it was the national media that really came out the losers. They'd done their part in creating Cliven Bundy. And then he said that stuff. And OH FUCK did they have to flick the switch off that story in an instant. He was NOT the rugged individualist rancher standing up to the federal government. He was just a racist asshole who the establishment media had made a famous person out of.
The lesson is... WE SHOULD HAVE NEVER KNOWN HIS NAME.
Now we shouldn't know his sons names. Maybe they're cleverly using social media but they're also all over the network news tonight and that is a disgrace. They took over an empty nothing. Haven't fired a shot. Probably the same racists that their dad is. Turn off the lights, ABC, NBC, CNN. Charles P. Pierce.
Declare the shack closed to the public, cut off the supply line, and wait for these guys to come out. Arrest them and charge them with crimes and let them lawyer up and have their day in court.
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sambista
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sambista
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jammerbirdi
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| Posted: 01/04/16 3:51 am ::: |
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| sambista wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
Really? Do you guys really just swallow whatever the Left says about everything? Terrorists? lol.
How many people did these asshats kill in a mass slaughter of innocent lives as folks were going about their business in America?
They're out in the sticks. So they also aren't a mass of hundreds looting and burning stores in a town or city.
I don't know a lot about their gripe but I'm sure I don't agree with much of it and I would bet they're probably battling with the government over money or land or grazing rights which is all money. We have protesters who disrupt all kinds of shit now in this country and YOU GUYS aren't griping that no one is putting a stop to those protests? Police didn't open fire on the crowds in Ferguson or Baltimore or Chicago. Do you have a problem with that? Then why do you have a problem that some crazy ranchers taking over some place in the middle of nowhere in protest and that there hasn't been an armed response to them? Because of racism. Or something.
So we're upset they're not being called terrorists now? They are AMERICANS. Your fellow Americans. They are NOT Muslim extremists or radicalized lone wolves plotting to blow people up at the Boston Marathon or open up with AR-15s on a holiday part FOR THE PURPOSE OF TERRORIZING AMERICA. Do you see the difference between these guys and radicalized Muslim extremists bent on inflicting terror here. You know, like they have been doing for decades around the world, taking countless lives.
SHEEZE people.
Happy New Year. Let's get it on. |
it's really interesting how you turned your kaleidoscope till it fit your perception of rebellion and imminent threat - or rather, until this incident didn't rise to the level of rebellion and imminent threat.
how do you know what they are or are not, and what they're plotting to do or not do? what if this was a group of americans who happened to be muslim, but their declared protest was about something having nothing to do with being muslim? would anyone believe it?
what if it was a group of american indians? do i have to ask what if it was a group of black people? or spanish-speaking, documented, migrant workers? would anyone stop for one second (before grabbing guns and other armament) and say, "oh, no big deal. they're in the middle of nowhere"?
an armed, anti-government group has taken over federal property. when doesn't that prompt a response?
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I think people are being melodramatic and alarmist. And some people are desperately trying to make these kinds of people out to be just like Muslim terrorists.
You can say it's because they're white and I'm white. But I'll tell you another story.
There were these black folks. Three of them. Two men and I believe a woman. This was last year. Or shit, 2015. Well, that is last year. Out here in California. And I think two of them worked for the state. One I believe for Kamila Harris the CA-AG. Anyway, they tried to start their own fraternal police organization here in CA. And they sent out all these notices to CA law enforcement agencies declaring who they were and that they were setting up this organization... but they included this rhetoric about their organization tracking its roots dating back hundreds of years and that they have some sovereign powers.
So they waved their badges in a bar or cafe and made some of those pronouncements over drinks. Then I believe they asked to have meetings with local county sheriffs CERTAINLY for the SOLE purpose of trying to build up a membership base and maybe get some contributions (these are big time counties, people)... but when they showed up they were fucking arrested and they have been (unless there's more to the story that I haven't read) charged with some very serious crimes. People lost their jobs with the state of California, etc.
Look, maybe I'm wrong. But I thought that was a horrible HORRIBLE overreaction on the part of law enforcement. Sit these people down and tell them that this is cool what they're doing but if they don't lose this boilerplate bullshit about sovereign powers they're going to be arrested and charged, etc. These weren't bad people. They were full of shit and had some shit for brains aspect to their setting up of their organization. I would bet they didn't expect anyone to take them seriously on that part of it or fucking destroy their lives OVER it.
They were done very wrong but that's not my point. My point is that that's my feelings about this situation and these were black. If I had a problem with this kind of shit being done by people who aren't white...
So, I mean, people who look at me saying AMERICANS like these Bundy's are not terrorists like the Saudi's who flew planes in the WTC or like Tashfeen Malik in San Bernardino... that I feel that way ONLY because these guys are white males...'
What I would say to that is that you should go find people who actually do think that way and have that argument with those people. I don't feel that way for that reason and it's tiresome to encounter this assumption being made about my position or my perspective. Muslim terrorists in this country have by and large not been Americans and their principle goal has been to kill as many Americans as they can... around the world they kill indiscriminately.
These guys are not those people and me saying that doesn't mean my kaleidoscope is tilted or turned. I actually don't have a kaleidoscope. A terrorist is a terrorist and a rancher squabbling with the government over grazing rights is not a terrorist unless they decide to become terrorists and I'm sure we'll know when and if that happens and then I'll call them terrorists.
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jammerbirdi
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sambista
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| Posted: 01/04/16 4:11 am ::: |
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| you are WAY on the wrong side of this, jammer. what confounds me is why you can't see it. it's indefensible.
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jammerbirdi
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| Posted: 01/04/16 4:15 am ::: |
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| sambista wrote: |
| you are WAY on the wrong side of this, jammer. what confounds me is why you can't see it. it's indefensible. |
Lol. Well everybody's entitled to be wrong once in a while! You guys expect too much from the jammer. Perfection is such a thorny crown. (I shouldn't have read the whole Charles P. Pierce piece.)
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sambista
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beknighted
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| Posted: 01/04/16 10:21 am ::: |
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I don't know if I would call them terrorists (haven't killed anybody yet), but I'm pretty comfortable calling their behavior treasonous.
That said, of course a bunch of white Christian guys could be terrorists. There's a chunk of the anti-abortion movement that pretty obviously engages in terrorism (not a big chunk, but a real one, and encouraged by a larger percentage of the activists in the movement than some people would like to admit)*, and it's pretty much all white men. As it turned out, for instance, the Atlanta Olympics bomber was a white anti-abortion activist who bombed a bunch of clinics.
*I don't know if it still exists, but there used to be an annual dinner called the White Rose Banquet that honored people who engaged in direct action - that is, violence - against abortion clinics. Sometimes the honorees could not attend because they were in prison.
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jammerbirdi
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TonyL222
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| Posted: 01/04/16 12:05 pm ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
I don't know if I would call them terrorists (haven't killed anybody yet), but I'm pretty comfortable calling their behavior treasonous.
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These are armed men (from another state, btw) who bypassed the law and illegally took over government property. further, they have insinuated that will use their arms against any who try to remove them. Give them any term you want. But it is curious that they are being referred to as a "militia" which gives them some level of legitimacy.
In Baltimore there were a "few" knuckleheads who burned and looted and they should be prosecuted. Beyond that, I cannot think of any
Black Lives Matter" protest that involved armed men let alone taking over government property.
These men need to be given a short time to turn themselves in peacefully - or be removed by force. They have vowed that they will not move, and that cannot be allowed to last long.
This started as a peaceful rally in support of the two farmers convicted of arson. Then some armed outside agitators took over government buildings, have not made any clear demands, say they are not leaving and will take violent action against any who try to remove them.
The quote below is from FoxNews.com, BTW:
Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward said the protesters were no patriots.
"These men came to Harney County claiming to be part of militia groups supporting local ranchers, when in reality these men had alternative motives to attempt to overthrow the county and federal government in hopes to spark a movement across the United States," Ward said in a statement. "We are currently working jointly with several organizations to make sure the citizens of Harney County are safe and this issue is resolved as quickly and peaceful as possible."
Last edited by TonyL222 on 01/04/16 12:24 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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sambista
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| Posted: 01/04/16 12:16 pm ::: |
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| jammer, why are you stuck on asserting that they took over a "shed" and that it's happening far away from other people? neither is relevant, neither is conditional by law. but i could use those two points to emphasize what would happen if these were another flavor of people: if another flavor of people took over a shed, as you call it, in the middle of nowhere, as you say, and proclaimed their right to rebel with firepower to back up their threat, we'd be watching this via chopper cam with law enforcement armed to the teeth to retake the shed and take down the militants.
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jammerbirdi
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| Posted: 01/04/16 12:27 pm ::: |
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| sambista wrote: |
| jammer, why are you stuck on asserting that they took over a "shed" and that it's happening far away from other people? neither is relevant, neither is conditional by law. but i could use those two points to emphasize what would happen if these were another flavor of people: if another flavor of people took over a shed, as you call it, in the middle of nowhere, as you say, and proclaimed their right to rebel with firepower to back up their threat, we'd be watching this via chopper cam with law enforcement armed to the teeth to retake the shed and take down the militants. |
And you would want that to happen to those hypothetical black people?
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jammerbirdi
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| Posted: 01/04/16 12:36 pm ::: |
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| sambista wrote: |
| jammer, why are you stuck on asserting that they took over a "shed" and that it's happening far away from other people? |
Well isn't it? And I just drove this past summer from Colorado Springs down into New Mexico and back to LA so I've had a recent refresher on the kind of out in the middle of nowhere isolation that is so common in the great out Western US. If I'm wrong about their locale then I plead ignorance. The actual particulars of this case are not as interesting to me. I am only really lighting on the idea that this should be like something else which I quite frankly find to be poppycock.
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sambista
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| Posted: 01/04/16 12:44 pm ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| sambista wrote: |
| jammer, why are you stuck on asserting that they took over a "shed" and that it's happening far away from other people? neither is relevant, neither is conditional by law. but i could use those two points to emphasize what would happen if these were another flavor of people: if another flavor of people took over a shed, as you call it, in the middle of nowhere, as you say, and proclaimed their right to rebel with firepower to back up their threat, we'd be watching this via chopper cam with law enforcement armed to the teeth to retake the shed and take down the militants. |
And you would want that to happen to those hypothetical black people? |
you can call those hypothetical people anything you want. whether i'd want that to happen to them is also irrelevant. this is yet another mixed message to citizens. it inflames the disenfranchised and emboldens the entitled. it threatens to further widen that dangerous gulf.
what i would expect is a uniform response, regardless of the event. that response would be measured, its aim to de-escalate the situation and preserve lives.
and by the way, here's the "shed" you were talking about - a headquarters, a visitors' center and a museum. these militants are barring access to it all. they have taken control of federal property. i don't even know why anyone's watching local law enforcement do nothing. they don't have a single police car outside. this is a federal matter. in what parallel universe does this happen?!
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jammerbirdi
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