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Ferguson Grand Jury Decision
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pilight



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 10:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
pilight wrote:
The cop is the only one armed and he should be trained in how to handle these situations. It is his responsibility to de-escalate things.


De-escalate what? An argument? A disagreement? lol. Oh that cops could de-escalate violent criminals who are on the rampage.


Violent criminal? No one in this case has been convicted of or even charged with a violent crime.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 10:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
pilight wrote:
The cop is the only one armed and he should be trained in how to handle these situations. It is his responsibility to de-escalate things.


De-escalate what? An argument? A disagreement? lol. Oh that cops could de-escalate violent criminals who are on the rampage.


Violent criminal? No one in this case has been convicted of or even charged with a violent crime.


pilight. you know that's ridiculous. if you're encountering and engaging with a violent suspect... my eyes are rolling around in my head.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 10:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

In my mind, there are two separate issues here: the specifics of the Brown shooting and the overall state of conflict between the police and minority citizens--especially African Americans.

One of the problems with making the first issue a centerpiece for protests is that it undermines the second issue.

As beknighted noted earlier, as of right now the people with the best understanding of what actually happened are the people on the Grand Jury. They spent an extraordinary amount of time parsing all of the forensics and all of the eye-witness testimony. It is unfair and illogical to dismiss their findings out of hand, without having some factual basis to do so--and one specific to this case. The burden of proof for a Grand Jury to indict is fairly low. They are simply looking for "probable cause". So for them to come back without an indictment suggests that the actual evidence supported the officers account of events.

However, the deeper issue is still very much out there. There are far greater problems than this one specific case. The adversarial nature between the police and the community they are supposed to serve is frightening. And the responsibility for ending this belongs to the police. They should, as noted earlier, be able to deescalate situations. They should not be interacting with the populace from a position of power, but rather from subservience. They are meant to serve the public good. Their first interaction should not be aggressive. They should be able to talk to and reason with individuals with civility and even friendliness. They should not approach every individual with the assumption that they are breaking some law. Think more Andy Griffith and less Vic Mackey.

It is clear that this doesn't happen in urban areas. And it is clear that both poverty and race add to this adversarial nature. This leads to situations that don't need to happen. Yes, the officer was probably defending himself. But why did it get to that point? What are the conditions present within that community and within that police force that create such a volatile and antagonistic relationship between the two? What is it that put this officer and this young man on such a tragic collision course, and what is it that we can do to stop this from happening in the future?

Unfortunately, when the protesters don't make this point, and instead make it about the specifics of this one case it becomes too easy for the rest of the world to dismiss. The argument becomes too narrow. It becomes about one person and one situation rather than the community as a whole. The fight becomes over whether or not this was "justified" instead of asking, justified or not, "why did it have to happen in the first place?.



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 10:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

and why did the dickhead DA wait until night to deliver this decision....so he could be on primetime?

this stinks sooooo bad.



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cthskzfn



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 11:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

he should have been indicted, just to avoid all this shit.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 11:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
Essentially disabling him? You're saying you don't know what happened and of course we don't... but that's the kind of predicate assumption (sorry, I don't know how else to put it) that people build on. And I'm not saying I haven't done it I'm just saying that you kind of lose me after that because I don't know that Michael Brown was ever essentially disabled until he was lying on that pavement... BUT... AND... beknighted.... I DO know that most often that's not considered the end of the threat by police officers... by a mile... not until the cuffs are on is that suspect in custody and under control.

So... a COP... who is excited, scared shitless, etc... who as already been attacked in his own vehicle by a really big dude who tried to take his gun... shots fired... I don't think that cop is going to assume that THAT guy is not a threat to him as long as he is moving.

I'm not a cop. I don't really like cops and I'd like to see a revolution in police procedures for dealing with citizens in the field. But if I were a cop and a guy came through the window of my vehicle trying to get my gun and shots were fired and then when I got out of the vehicle that guy didn't do an immediate face plant or follow instructions but continued to present a threat (which anything other than complete compliance to my instructions would indicate) I can't say I wouldn't have shot him until he went down and was no longer a threat. I wouldn't let the dude get away. I would consider (in my non-cop thinking) him to be an active deadly threat to me and to the public and to other officers who MUST be apprehended or stopped.


First, I'll quote pilight here:

plight wrote:
The cop is the only one armed and he should be trained in how to handle these situations. It is his responsibility to de-escalate things.


This is correct. Police are *supposed* to be trained that way. Lately, they're not (or at least they act like they're not), and that's a problem.



Where do you (and pilight) get this idea that cops are supposed or are trained to de-escalate their encounters with violent criminals? That's not true at all. Here is what is true. Cops are trained to achieve complete control over any situation that presents danger to themselves or the public. Their very indiscriminate application of that primary duty what leads them to shoot and kill disturbed teenagers acting out when their own families dial 911 looking for some help.

Pussy cops shoot kids all the time in this country. About ten years ago a bunch of cops down in Orange County shot to death a 19 year-old black girl sleeping in her car who might have been overcome by carbon monoxide and actually in need of their HELP. After Michael Brown was shot in what seem to me a justifiable case of officer involved shooting... a half dozen unarmed black guys were shot to death by the LAPD. Every one of those cases were stronger civil rights cases and actual examples of fucked up and unwarranted shootings of black men by the police than was this Ferguson incident. This shit happens ALL THE TIME in LA.

Hell we were watching a chase late one rainy night earlier this year... a 50 year white old guy driving his own corvette.... the guy had problems and had really gone over the edge... so there was a high speed chase. And on surface streets near downtown. Not good if you want to stay alive. Cause the LAPD ain't gonna have non of that shit. So this guy wrecks into a couple of ladies in an intersection near downtown and bounces off a telephone poll (or a tree)..

He jumps out of the car and raises his hands and is moving way to fast for the police because... hey, he's NUTS... and suddenly he goes down like a ton of bricks. Shot so many times.

I could see his hands raised in the air when he was shot ALL the way here in my living room. But he's dead.

Anyway. The police and how they go about their business of dealing with the public must change. But I don't know if that can ever happen if people as smart as you too are so mistaken about what cops who encounter actually violent perps are supposed to do.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 11:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

justintyme wrote:
In my mind, there are two separate issues here: the specifics of the Brown shooting and the overall state of conflict between the police and minority citizens--especially African Americans.

One of the problems with making the first issue a centerpiece for protests is that it undermines the second issue.


When you're right, you're REALLY right.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
beknighted



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 11:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
beknighted wrote:

First, I'll quote pilight here:

plight wrote:
The cop is the only one armed and he should be trained in how to handle these situations. It is his responsibility to de-escalate things.


This is correct. Police are *supposed* to be trained that way. Lately, they're not (or at least they act like they're not), and that's a problem.



Where do you (and pilight) get this idea that cops are supposed or are trained to de-escalate their encounters with violent criminals? That's not true at all. Here is what is true. Cops are trained to achieve complete control over any situation that presents danger to themselves or the public. Their very indiscriminate application of that primary duty what leads them to shoot and kill disturbed teenagers acting out when their own families dial 911 looking for some help.

Pussy cops shoot kids all the time in this country. About ten years ago a bunch of cops down in Orange County shot to death a 19 year-old black girl sleeping in her car who might have been overcome by carbon monoxide and actually in need of their HELP. After Michael Brown was shot in what seem to me a justifiable case of officer involved shooting... a half dozen unarmed black guys were shot to death by the LAPD. Every one of those cases were stronger civil rights cases and actual examples of fucked up and unwarranted shootings of black men by the police than was this Ferguson incident. This shit happens ALL THE TIME in LA.

Hell we were watching a chase late one rainy night earlier this year... a 50 year white old guy driving his own corvette.... the guy had problems and had really gone over the edge... so there was a high speed chase. And on surface streets near downtown. Not good if you want to stay alive. Cause the LAPD ain't gonna have non of that shit. So this guy wrecks into a couple of ladies in an intersection near downtown and bounces off a telephone poll (or a tree)..

He jumps out of the car and raises his hands and is moving way to fast for the police because... hey, he's NUTS... and suddenly he goes down like a ton of bricks. Shot so many times.

I could see his hands raised in the air when he was shot ALL the way here in my living room. But he's dead.

Anyway. The police and how they go about their business of dealing with the public must change. But I don't know if that can ever happen if people as smart as you too are so mistaken about what cops who encounter actually violent perps are supposed to do.


I think you're misunderstanding me. I could go on at great length, but I'll try for the short version:

I know what cops are supposed to do, because it's the same thing that the rest of us are supposed to do. And if there's an actual threat, they (and the rest of us) have a right to respond to that threat, including with deadly force. But what I expect of the police - and we all should expect the same thing - is that they will have better judgment than the average person because they are trained for those situations and because they have a duty to protect the citizenry, not just themselves.

My hypothetical situation assumed that Brown *obviously* was no threat, but I never did say (and am not saying now) that was the actual case. Still, if it had been the case, then Wilson would not have been justified in shooting him again. The law does not let anybody put another round in someone "just to make sure," and surely does not permit killing someone who obviously is no position to hurt you. And, you know, that includes someone who tried to punch you before you shot him.


pilight



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 11:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Let's take a look at the damage this "violent criminal" did to the officer in question...







Perhaps the police need to learn the value of a proportional response...



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p_d_swanson



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PostPosted: 11/24/14 11:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Pierce: Dead of Night: The Ferguson Decision
Quote:
There is something gone badly wrong in the way police are taught to look at civilians these days. This is the logic of an occupying power being employed on American citizens. Ever since 9/11, when we all began to be told that we were going to have to bend a little bit, and then a little bit more, to authority or else we'd all die, the police in this country have been militarized in their tactics and in their equipment, which is bad enough, but in their attitudes and their mentality, which is far, far worse. Suspicion has bled into weaponized paranoia, especially in the case of black and brown people, especially in the case of young men who are black or brown, but this is not About Race because nothing ever is About Race.



hyperetic



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 1:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
pilight wrote:
The cop is the only one armed and he should be trained in how to handle these situations. It is his responsibility to de-escalate things.


De-escalate what? An argument? A disagreement? lol. Oh that cops could de-escalate violent criminals who are on the rampage.


They didn't seem to have a problem doing it with James Holmes, Jared Loughner, Timothy McVeigh, etc. all of whom were armed.

Why are policeman taught hand to hand combat skills if they're main option is to shoot even if the alleged perpetrator is unarmed? Why are there readily available non-lethals to be used on unarmed combatants?

So what you are saying is Timothy Brown deserves to die because he allegedly wrestled with a cop? Even if he tried to get the gun, he did not get it.

The armed cop's life is worth more than any unarmed person's?

Do you think you would get off scot free if you saw an unarmed man coming at you in what you perceived as a menacing manner and you shot him multiple times til he was dead?

Are you saying you honestly believe that all the recent killings of unarmed or armed with toys men and boys of color are all legally justified? That race was not a factor and that police never coverup wrongdoing?
sambista



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 5:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i won't post too much because it's emotionally exhausting. but i did want to share this link, which is an extremely rare release of the grand jury documents, posted - page by page - by the nyt for anyone to read.

evidence released in michael brown case



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TonyL222



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 6:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:

Did this officer kill Michael Brown for wearing a hood? For wearing a white tee? For holding a wallet?

No. Michael Brown, a suspect (and the actual perpetrator) in a strong-arm robbery, DID climb into a police vehicle and fought with this officer inside his own vehicle.


I don't have the energy for this one, so this is probably my only comments. There was never any question of an encounter between Wilson and Brown at/in the car. All the initial witnesses reported that. The question is whether Brown was attacking or trying to get away. That Brown's blood and DNA were found on the door and inside the car is not inconsistent - especially after shots were fired from inside he car. If Wilson withdrew his gun inside the car, it's not a stretch to believe that Brown would then try to reach for Wilson and his gun hand.

I don't know who's story is true. But to believe Wilson's story, you have to believe that Brown was willing to resist arrest and assault a police officer over a $35 box of cigars.

Just want to be clear that this WAS NOT a trial. It's a hearing to see if there is enough evidence/doubt that this should go to trial, evidence be presented and a jury decide on the veracity of the evidence. My understanding is that the St Louis prosecutor didn't even recommend any charges to the Grand Jury which is unusual.


Queenie



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 7:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammer, just because pilight has joined the voice of the majority does not automatically mean someone else has to step up and be the contrarian.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 8:19 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

hyperetic wrote:
Do you think you would get off scot free if you saw an unarmed man coming at you in what you perceived as a menacing manner and you shot him multiple times til he was dead?


Am I in Florida in this hypothetical?



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Genero36



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 8:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

TonyL222 wrote:
I don't have the energy for this one


I have now reached that point. I will just say a prayer for the Brown family.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 10:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
jammer, just because pilight has joined the voice of the majority does not automatically mean someone else has to step up and be the contrarian.


Don't forget justintyme. Laughing I'm not the only one.

I honestly don't get it. It's like so many of you are new to the hating on police for unjustified shootings parlor game. Back when Dreamweaver was the coolest thing on the planet I used it to make and publish a handful of websites. One of them was a jammer-rant-stand against the police. I made it to publicize and characterize for the world-wide-web the never ended cycle of unjustified police shootings here in Southern California. I had the story of the girl sleeping in her car. The unstable 130 lb 16-year-old whose family called 911 because they were worried about his erratic behavior and who, when surrounded by police, was whirling in a circle keeping the police at bay with a broom stick and who was shot 9 times. The homeless 90 lb woman in her 60s who was shot for pulling out a screwdriver when stopped by police for having a shopping cart back when the police were instructed to arrest homeless people for shopping cart theft.

pilight and beknighted are two brilliant people who I admire so much... but they are both off their chimp on this one.

pilight says the police should 'learn' something about 'proportional response.' lol. God it is NOT about proportional response with the police. That is a hoot. Proportional response is something you teach children. The police have a POLICY of utilizing something called OVERWHELMING FORCE. That is their policy. And I'll tell you something about police policies in a second.

beknighted says we're not understanding each other and that he knows what police are 'supposed to do' and that is to do basically as the rest of us are supposed to do, etc. Holy cow! Okay. We're aren't understanding each other, that much is correct. But you apparently don't know what the police are supposed to do. Police are supposed to ALWAYS do what is outlined for them to do in all situations by their policy and procedures. And that stuff doesn't look anything at all like what you or I or regular people would think they're supposed to do in almost any circumstance.

Pollice respond with overwhelming force. Police resolve threats and situations. Police secure the perimeter. When police officers discharge their weapons it is never as a warning and they are forbidden from shooting to disable or wound. Shoot to kill is their POLICY.

Police policies and procedures are largely written by the police with a big assist from police unions. In all the years that these shooting have been happening in Southern California, through multiple federal investigations and consent decrees imposed on multiple law enforcement agencies... the one thing that has remained almost untouchable by civilian oversight or the government is policies and procedures. They've changed very little. The police continue to get away with discharging their service weapons into human beings who did not need to be shot to death.

If you want to fight the police the way to do it is find a way to impose civilian oversight over the re-writing of THEIR OWN POLICIES AND PROCEDURES. Good luck with that because the way things are done now with oversight boards containing one or two community leaders, it's the same old run around. Even one of my personal heroes, the super intelligent Connie Rice, (Condeleeza's cousin) who made her fame as a critic of the LAPD and who has been able to ascend to some pretty powerful positions of influence on police actions hasn't been able to turn this issue completely around.

I bailed on the revolution when I saw the convenience story video. I don't like that guy. He's not an innocent person he's a creep and bully and a criminal. There's a lot of things you should do when stopped by the police, violently opposing them is not one of them. He PUNCHED a cop in the head? That cop is sitting on a service weapon and I'm sure either a tactical shotgun or an assault weapon in the trunk. Society demands that that police officer maintain control of his weaponry and not let it fall into the hands of a violent criminal who is fighting him. So yeah, you can call me a contrarian but from what I know about this situation based on my own reading of certain facts that are not in dispute, Michael Brown's shooting (I don't like the word 'deserved' in these situations) by that officer was a) justified and b) within (my understanding of) the duties, responsible, policies and procedures of most police departments.

If you don't like any of that you're going to have to change it somehow. I'd be there with you on many points. But not over Michael Brown. Sorry. I WANT the police to apprehend that guy and when he physically fights the police I want the police to respond with the force necessary to apprehend that individual. Had there been a bunch more officers wherein the police are in control of events then certainly many other things could have been done (and SHOULD be done) to resolve the situation. But Wilson was the only cop there. Brown was a very big dude who decided to attack the police officer who was engaging him. The cop was doing his job, the job society has placed him there to do. Michael Brown was, however, dictating events by not behaving as a lawful member of society. And by actually attacking a police, he made his own killing justifiable. IMO.



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Last edited by jammerbirdi on 11/25/14 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total
beknighted



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 11:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lest we forget, it's pretty much beyond dispute that the entire incident began when Wilson decided he needed to order Brown and his friend not to walk in the street.


jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 11:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
Lest we forget, it's pretty much beyond dispute that the entire incident began when Wilson decided he needed to order Brown and his friend not to walk in the street.


Oh no. It's not beyond dispute. Lest we forget, the entire incident began with a strong arm convenience store robbery twenty minutes earlier by Michael Brown. Shocked



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
pilight



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 11:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

jammerbirdi wrote:
beknighted wrote:
Lest we forget, it's pretty much beyond dispute that the entire incident began when Wilson decided he needed to order Brown and his friend not to walk in the street.


Oh no. It's not beyond dispute. Lest we forget, the entire incident began with a strong arm convenience store robbery twenty minutes earlier by Michael Brown. Shocked


Not sure how that is related to the shooting, given that the killer cop had no way of knowing the alleged robbery had even occurred, let alone that Brown might have been involved.



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 11:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
jammerbirdi wrote:
beknighted wrote:
Lest we forget, it's pretty much beyond dispute that the entire incident began when Wilson decided he needed to order Brown and his friend not to walk in the street.


Oh no. It's not beyond dispute. Lest we forget, the entire incident began with a strong arm convenience store robbery twenty minutes earlier by Michael Brown. Shocked


Not sure how that is related to the shooting, given that the killer cop had no way of knowing the alleged robbery had even occurred, let alone that Brown might have been involved.


While that was widely reported as fact for many long months we learned yesterday that it was not the case. Officer Wilson actually heard two reports on his radio of the convenience store robbery in the twenty minute span from the robbery to his shooting of Brown. First was while he was attending to a child in distress call and the second, which contained a description of the perpetrators matching Michael Brown, as well as the item taken from the store, cigarillos (which Officer Wilson said he saw in Michael Brown's hand) came through on his radio in the police vehicle.

I don't know what else to say here. Shocked



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
smenko



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 11:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As a white woman, I cannot even begin to imagine what it must feel like today or any day to be black in America. The fear for the safety of your child's welfare is a given for any race...but, the fear of a black mother for her son/s goes beyond anything I can conjure in my mind.

Prayers for all.


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PostPosted: 11/25/14 11:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Jammer, "proportional response" is the self defense law. That's not something that you teach a child. That's something that is tried in court.

This was a pathetic decision. But it's also not surprising. And not just because of race issues, but also because it's damn near impossible to hold police officers accountable for anything.



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jammerbirdi



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PostPosted: 11/25/14 12:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
Jammer, "proportional response" is the self defense law. That's not something that you teach a child. That's something that is tried in court.


You're questioning a rhetorical flourish but my response to you would be that the police do not proceed through their responsibilities according to self-defense laws intended for the public. The police enforce laws according to policies and procedures that are designed to ensure their own safety with a questionable nod to public safety. I'm editorializing there a bit but nothing compared to what some of you guys are doing so whatever.



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Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
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PostPosted: 11/25/14 12:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mercfan3 wrote:
Jammer, "proportional response" is the self defense law. That's not something that you teach a child. That's something that is tried in court.

This was a pathetic decision. But it's also not surprising. And not just because of race issues, but also because it's damn near impossible to hold police officers accountable for anything.

What, exactly, makes it a "pathetic decision"? Are you basing this on the actual evidence that the jury had to weigh? The eye witness testimony and forensics?

How would you have ruled, using the evidence and not some preconceived belief of guilt or innocence?

Having read it all, it seems fairly clear that there was no way for them to indict. The evidence pretty much stood lock-step with the officer's account. Yet I see so many people just discount this jury's desicion out of hand.

This isn't to say there is not a serious problem in the way the police relate with minorities. There are numerous cases which demonstrate this. The frustration in these communities is more than warrented, but there are better examples of this out there than this specific case.



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