| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 16464
Location: Holland
Back to top |
|
GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
Back to top |
 Posted: 08/29/14 1:34 am ::: |
Reply  |
|
| myrtle wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
As I mentioned in another thread, the Sparks have two elite power forwards in Parker and Ogwumike, and that causes them to run the system they do.
They also have only three-point shooter (Toliver), which makes it easy for defenses to both pack the paint and control the perimeter.
Leadership is nice, but talent comes first, and the Sparks have too much concentrated in one spot. Granted, they pretty much had to take Nneka, and they tried to see if having two power forwards would work, but it doesn't.
If I were running that team, I'd be shopping Nneka for a quality perimeter player and looking for a shooter in the draft. |
There is no reason to believe this Sparks team couldn't be successful just the way they are. Now I'm not saying this team is perfect, they are far from it, but it's not as if this team is the worst talent wise in the league and leadership isn't going to do anything for the team. Of course there are different areas where the roster can be improved, but as I mentioned in my earlier post, if they don't have a leader it's not going to matter who they bring it, the Sparks are still going to be in the same situation, get wins on talent alone, but when push comes to shove and things get rough they will struggle and become disjointed like they are now. |
According to the article quoted about Magic, Parker told him changing the coach wasn't enough, and he went on and on about how important it is to listen to the players. I would say there will be some major shakin and bakin with this team. The three players that would surprise me if they were traded are Nneka, Parker, and Beard. |
I'm not exactly sure why you responded to me with what you said, but if I understand you correctly, here is my response to what I think you are saying. I think if the Sparks had a person who could step up and be a leader and the respect of her teammates this current team (while not exactly this current team, because that person would replace one of the 11 on the roster) could have been successful. I disagree with the idea that if the Sparks had more talented players in certain positions they would have had a better record just based on having better talent without having someone in that leadership role. I think there will be a good amount of changes made to the Sparks roster, but it's not really going to matter what players they bring in if they don't find someone who is that leader.
|
|
GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/29/14 1:49 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Shades wrote: |
| Randy wrote: |
Good discussion here of why so hard to improve a team in a big way. Basically, LA is a one superstar team, competing with a two superstar team (PHx) and a 3 superstar team (MN). And its supporting cast is not quite as good in either case. Absent getting someone to give up a superstar type player (e.g. Angel, Maya, Tina, EDD, Skylar, etc) for little in return they can only improve incrementally. That may not be enough since every other team will try to do the same. Attrition of the opposition through aging is more likely to occur before LA can make that mega trade or find a role player or two that is going to put them over the top.
Probably the qucikest route to improvement is to get a good coach. Worked for DC and the Mercury for example. Of course, Ross was a good coach as long as they were winning more than 20 games a year. |
Parker says they were winning because of the talent level of the club, but they didn't have a style or identity (they were just winging it every night sorta like TUL now), so they didn't have what it takes to win in the playoffs. To me that's pointing to coaching.
Whether Parker came up with that alone or people have been telling her that's the problem, I'm not sure. |
To be honest, I'm still not sure how people don't see that, the Sparks issues have nothing to do with talent. Of course talent helps, but when you are going up against teams with equal, a little more or a little less, in terms of talent, it's the little things that come into play, like leadership, accepting their roles, understanding what is going on, having good chemistry, etc. Yes some of that is coaching, but the coach can teach, mentor, help, etc, all the want, but at the end of the day it's up to the players. The Sparks currently have no one who wants to be in that role, or no one want is capable of taking that role for whatever reason, injured, new to the team, etc..
Of course talent will always help, and the Sparks should be looking to make changes to the roster and ideally fill holes on the current roster. But there is a reason the most talented teams don't always win.
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11149
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/29/14 8:27 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I think the Sparks had some issues with talent distribution on the court, and some issues with leadership as well.
Without being at practice every day, it's very hard to know where the leadership issues come from. Could be the coaches, could be the players, could be the administration, but usually it's the players, though it almost always involves everyone with any power in the organization to some extent.
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32335
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/29/14 5:01 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
'leadership' and 'chemistry' are both relatively hard to define.
We think we know what leadership is but realistically it's a two way (actually multiple way) street. There has to be someone willing to be that leader, but there also has to be a consensus of the rest willing to listen to/follow the leader. I'm not sure it's realistic to import 'a leader'. This team has multiple players who could be leaders. Maybe it's a matter of surrounding them with players willing to let them lead. Parker is a bit of an issue in this regard because I'm guessing she sees herself as the leader and therefore doesn't want another to take the role, but at the same time she doesn't appear to have the 'it' required to do it herself. A conundrum.
Chemistry issues are sometimes easier to see and therefore easier to fix. I assume there is some of this on the team and that could be fixed in the off season.
My humble trades/thoughts for the Sparks: sign Leilani Mitchell. Trade Harding to NY for Essence. Trade Armintie to Atlanta for Thomas.
Toliver/Mitchell/[wiggins]
Beard/ Thomas/[wiggins]
Parker/ Essence
Nneka/[Parker]/draft pick
JLav/ [find a post]
two FAs from somewhere. They seem to be pretty decent at finding them.
Obviously I don't think Parker at the 3 is so terrible as some make it out to be. And I'm assuming that another year away from injury will bring Essence closer to her old self. This doesn't entirely resolve their needs but it does bring a couple more scorers into the fold without totally losing defense.
On the other hand, I suspect Penny will want to trade JLav. So they should be able to get something decent for her as she could help quite a few lineups.
|
|
Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 10911
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/29/14 5:23 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| myrtle - who's your coach recommendation?
|
|
GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/29/14 7:25 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| myrtle wrote: |
'leadership' and 'chemistry' are both relatively hard to define.
We think we know what leadership is but realistically it's a two way (actually multiple way) street. There has to be someone willing to be that leader, but there also has to be a consensus of the rest willing to listen to/follow the leader. I'm not sure it's realistic to import 'a leader'. This team has multiple players who could be leaders. Maybe it's a matter of surrounding them with players willing to let them lead. Parker is a bit of an issue in this regard because I'm guessing she sees herself as the leader and therefore doesn't want another to take the role, but at the same time she doesn't appear to have the 'it' required to do it herself. A conundrum.
Chemistry issues are sometimes easier to see and therefore easier to fix. I assume there is some of this on the team and that could be fixed in the off season.
My humble trades/thoughts for the Sparks: sign Leilani Mitchell. Trade Harding to NY for Essence. Trade Armintie to Atlanta for Thomas.
Toliver/Mitchell/[wiggins]
Beard/ Thomas/[wiggins]
Parker/ Essence
Nneka/[Parker]/draft pick
JLav/ [find a post]
two FAs from somewhere. They seem to be pretty decent at finding them.
Obviously I don't think Parker at the 3 is so terrible as some make it out to be. And I'm assuming that another year away from injury will bring Essence closer to her old self. This doesn't entirely resolve their needs but it does bring a couple more scorers into the fold without totally losing defense.
On the other hand, I suspect Penny will want to trade JLav. So they should be able to get something decent for her as she could help quite a few lineups. |
I agree with you, it's difficult as an outsider to know where the problem or problems lie exactly, but it's not hard to see that leadership in at least one capacity is an issue.
I'm also curious as to how you came to your assumption about Candace Parker, I've always seen her as a player looking for a leader, not wanting to take over, both from what she has said in interviews and how she is around the team, at least from what I have observed, often times she is letting other players be the vocal person in huddles.
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32335
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/29/14 7:34 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| GEF34 wrote: |
I'm also curious as to how you came to your assumption about Candace Parker, I've always seen her as a player looking for a leader, not wanting to take over, both from what she has said in interviews and how she is around the team, at least from what I have observed, often times she is letting other players be the vocal person in huddles. |
You're obviously closer to the scene than I am so probably know best. My observation is just that while she may not want to be the one talking, she wants to be the one with veto power. Kinda like, "ok, you're the leader ....until I disagree with you," so for it to work, the 'leader' would always have to pretty much kowtow to her. That just makes it way more complex than in a more normal situation when the superstar is also the leader, or where the superstar is able to listen to the leader without trying to take over (Maya comes to mind).
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32335
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/29/14 7:38 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Randy wrote: |
| myrtle - who's your coach recommendation? |
strangely enough, I haven't put much thought into it. I suspect that it could well become an old crony of Magic's who has coaching experience but hasn't nec. coached in the W before.
I hope Cooper stays in Atlanta for continuity.
|
|
Libra_Girl
Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Posts: 1237
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/29/14 7:52 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| myrtle wrote: |
'leadership' and 'chemistry' are both relatively hard to define.
We think we know what leadership is but realistically it's a two way (actually multiple way) street. There has to be someone willing to be that leader, but there also has to be a consensus of the rest willing to listen to/follow the leader. I'm not sure it's realistic to import 'a leader'. This team has multiple players who could be leaders. Maybe it's a matter of surrounding them with players willing to let them lead. Parker is a bit of an issue in this regard because I'm guessing she sees herself as the leader and therefore doesn't want another to take the role, but at the same time she doesn't appear to have the 'it' required to do it herself. A conundrum.
Chemistry issues are sometimes easier to see and therefore easier to fix. I assume there is some of this on the team and that could be fixed in the off season.
My humble trades/thoughts for the Sparks: sign Leilani Mitchell. Trade Harding to NY for Essence. Trade Armintie to Atlanta for Thomas.
Toliver/Mitchell/[wiggins]
Beard/ Thomas/[wiggins]
Parker/ Essence
Nneka/[Parker]/draft pick
JLav/ [find a post]
two FAs from somewhere. They seem to be pretty decent at finding them.
Obviously I don't think Parker at the 3 is so terrible as some make it out to be. And I'm assuming that another year away from injury will bring Essence closer to her old self. This doesn't entirely resolve their needs but it does bring a couple more scorers into the fold without totally losing defense.
On the other hand, I suspect Penny will want to trade JLav. So they should be able to get something decent for her as she could help quite a few lineups. |
How about Alex M instead of Carson. With LA having enough scorers they wouldn't need her to score. I like her defense from games I watched plus she gives us some size at sg/sf. Seems like a perfect fit.
|
|
sigur3
Joined: 18 Jun 2013
Posts: 6191
Location: Chicago-ish
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/29/14 8:45 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Libra_Girl wrote: |
| How about Alex M instead of Carson. With LA having enough scorers they wouldn't need her to score. I like her defense from games I watched plus she gives us some size at sg/sf. Seems like a perfect fit. |
If her 43% shooting from 3 isn't an anomaly, then I would agree with you. With Carson you'd be buying low though.
|
|
GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/29/14 8:56 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| myrtle wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
I'm also curious as to how you came to your assumption about Candace Parker, I've always seen her as a player looking for a leader, not wanting to take over, both from what she has said in interviews and how she is around the team, at least from what I have observed, often times she is letting other players be the vocal person in huddles. |
You're obviously closer to the scene than I am so probably know best. My observation is just that while she may not want to be the one talking, she wants to be the one with veto power. Kinda like, "ok, you're the leader ....until I disagree with you," so for it to work, the 'leader' would always have to pretty much kowtow to her. That just makes it way more complex than in a more normal situation when the superstar is also the leader, or where the superstar is able to listen to the leader without trying to take over (Maya comes to mind). |
That makes sense. That's why I was hoping Nicky Anosike would stick with the Sparks, because she was the leader of the Tennessee teams and a person Candace trusted and respected. I thought Nicky would become one of the leaders of the Sparks and because she had Candace on her side the rest of the team would follow suit.
|
|
Libra_Girl
Joined: 12 Jul 2013
Posts: 1237
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/29/14 9:26 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| sigur3 wrote: |
| Libra_Girl wrote: |
| How about Alex M instead of Carson. With LA having enough scorers they wouldn't need her to score. I like her defense from games I watched plus she gives us some size at sg/sf. Seems like a perfect fit. |
If her 43% shooting from 3 isn't an anomaly, then I would agree with you. With Carson you'd be buying low though. |
I'm concern about Carson injury history with Wiggins showing that sometime you won't play the same after a injury.I do wish Carson the best.
|
|
TotalCardinalMove
Joined: 13 Oct 2013
Posts: 1466
Back to top |
|
tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9625
Back to top |
|
hangtyme24
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 2443
Back to top |
|
TotalCardinalMove
Joined: 13 Oct 2013
Posts: 1466
Back to top |
|
Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 16464
Location: Holland
Back to top |
|
J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 6800
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/30/14 10:29 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Libra_Girl wrote: |
| sigur3 wrote: |
| Libra_Girl wrote: |
| How about Alex M instead of Carson. With LA having enough scorers they wouldn't need her to score. I like her defense from games I watched plus she gives us some size at sg/sf. Seems like a perfect fit. |
If her 43% shooting from 3 isn't an anomaly, then I would agree with you. With Carson you'd be buying low though. |
I'm concern about Carson injury history with Wiggins showing that sometime you won't play the same after a injury.I do wish Carson the best. |
Not a fan of Harding, I wouldn't consider Carson for Harding even if Carson isn't 100%. I'd consider A. Montgomery for Harding but would actually prefer (some will hate this idea) A. Montgomery for Wiggins. I've always thought Wiggins could work in NY, she is a good/physical defender, at one point she had an outside shot and has enough handle that you could play her next to Cappie, but at the same time Wiggins value has dropped to a point where LA might actually pull the trigger on this trade. So A. Montgomery for Wiggins would be my preferred trade with LA. I'm not sure Mitchell works in LA since I believe LA needs Toliver on the court too much to also find minutes for Mitchell.
|
|
sammieee
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 608
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/31/14 2:07 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Michelle89 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| TotalCardinalMove wrote: |
Nneka for Danielle Adams  |
That would probably help. Then they would have 2 three point shooters.
Watching the game highlights from yesterday, it looks like Britney Griner has more range on her jump shot than the Ogwumike sisters (and that should probably be "Ogwumike sisters combined"). |
Actually Nneka has some pretty nice range. Last year or year before that she was shooting really well from the outside overseas. Hitting 3pointers and everything. And i dont mean against some crappy teams/players. But then she got back to the sparks. They didnt run any set plays for her never mind giving her the chance or green light for an open jumper.. |
I agree. Her senior year at Stanford, she was consistently hitting the midrange jumper, and she added a 3pt shot to her game (though, she didn't shoot well then).
Her WNBA 3pt stats are...1-7, 2-5, 3-10. Not great, but can show she can hit it. However, she was 14-28 in Euroleague. Is the FIBA 3pt shorter, longer or the same? Either way, she does have range.
|
|
Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 16464
Location: Holland
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/31/14 2:12 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| sammieee wrote: |
| Michelle89 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| TotalCardinalMove wrote: |
| Nneka for Danielle Adams |
That would probably help. Then they would have 2 three point shooters.
Watching the game highlights from yesterday, it looks like Britney Griner has more range on her jump shot than the Ogwumike sisters (and that should probably be "Ogwumike sisters combined"). |
Actually Nneka has some pretty nice range. Last year or year before that she was shooting really well from the outside overseas. Hitting 3pointers and everything. And i dont mean against some crappy teams/players. But then she got back to the sparks. They didnt run any set plays for her never mind giving her the chance or green light for an open jumper.. |
I agree. Her senior year at Stanford, she was consistently hitting the midrange jumper, and she added a 3pt shot to her game (though, she didn't shoot well then).
Her WNBA 3pt stats are...1-7, 2-5, 3-10. Not great, but can show she can hit it. However, she was 14-28 in Euroleague. Is the FIBA 3pt shorter, longer or the same? Either way, she does have range. |
It was longer but then WNBA has the same 3pointline now
_________________
"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
|
|
TigerVol
Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 2209
Location: ATL
Back to top |
| Posted: 08/31/14 2:32 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| myrtle wrote: |
'leadership' and 'chemistry' are both relatively hard to define.
We think we know what leadership is but realistically it's a two way (actually multiple way) street. There has to be someone willing to be that leader, but there also has to be a consensus of the rest willing to listen to/follow the leader. I'm not sure it's realistic to import 'a leader'. This team has multiple players who could be leaders. Maybe it's a matter of surrounding them with players willing to let them lead. Parker is a bit of an issue in this regard because I'm guessing she sees herself as the leader and therefore doesn't want another to take the role, but at the same time she doesn't appear to have the 'it' required to do it herself. A conundrum.
Chemistry issues are sometimes easier to see and therefore easier to fix. I assume there is some of this on the team and that could be fixed in the off season.
My humble trades/thoughts for the Sparks: sign Leilani Mitchell. Trade Harding to NY for Essence. Trade Armintie to Atlanta for Thomas.
Toliver/Mitchell/[wiggins]
Beard/ Thomas/[wiggins]
Parker/ Essence
Nneka/[Parker]/draft pick
JLav/ [find a post]
two FAs from somewhere. They seem to be pretty decent at finding them.
Obviously I don't think Parker at the 3 is so terrible as some make it out to be. And I'm assuming that another year away from injury will bring Essence closer to her old self. This doesn't entirely resolve their needs but it does bring a couple more scorers into the fold without totally losing defense.
On the other hand, I suspect Penny will want to trade JLav. So they should be able to get something decent for her as she could help quite a few lineups. |
Why would Atlanta want Herrington back over Thomas - purely a leadership thing?
Thomas started the season shooting well, lost it and regained a bit toward the end. I give Thomas more offensive upside at this point in her career than Herrington has in hers (and I was super sad to see her leave for LA).
_________________
"Never put an age limit on your dreams" - Dara Torres 2008
|
|
GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/08/14 1:03 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I watched Jennifer Hamson play volleyball this weekend, and as much as I was impressed watching her on the basketball court, I'm even more impressed watching her the on volleyball court. She is so good, she get on the floor, get up and block, attack from the back row, has an awesome serve. It's not surprising since volleyball was her first love and she has played and worked on her game a lot longer than basketball. I wouldn't be surprised to see her decide to go pro in volleyball and tryout for the 2016 Olympics after she finishes at BYU.
It would be cool if she could do both, though I think it would be really hard to do at the pro level, and especially with USA Volleyball having international tournaments throughout the summer impossible for her to do both in that sense, perhaps a little easier to just play pro volleyball overseas and in the WNBA, but still very difficult to do.
|
|
ChicagoAnnie
Joined: 04 Sep 2009
Posts: 9199
Location: St. Paul, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/08/14 9:51 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Minor knee surgery for Candace today. I wonder if she will skip Russia this year, or maybe join them after the new year?
|
|
Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 16464
Location: Holland
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/09/14 12:29 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ChicagoAnnie wrote: |
| Minor knee surgery for Candace today. I wonder if she will skip Russia this year, or maybe join them after the new year? |
She isnt going to skip it. There are new rules that in Russia you can only play with 2 americans now als in the russian league i believe so they choose to keep DT and Parker and Sue Bird is sitting out the overseas season because of that. So no they will not accept her skipping it.
Maybe they will let her join in january like they did Sue but i doubt it
_________________
"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
|
|
|
|
