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herrade
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 2308
Location: Twin Peaks
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 Posted: 04/04/05 2:10 pm ::: |
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| i'm very sorry, dt. i hope she had a good life and didn't suffer too much.
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 18815
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| Posted: 04/04/05 2:15 pm ::: |
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| herrade wrote: |
| i'm very sorry, dt. i hope she had a good life and didn't suffer too much. |
Oh yes! If I were offered today to make is to 93, and have the kids and grandkids, and the husbands she had, I'd sign on the dotted line!
Thank you for the kind thoughts.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 04/04/05 7:08 pm ::: |
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| Admiral_Needa wrote: |
[color=green]Religion is a deeply contentious issue with many facets on which reasonable people of good will should be free to disagree. Yes BCBG, it's troubling to see how Keegan continues to show a willingness to quickly elevate his disagreements to the level of flagrant disrespect. That fondness of being snarky is the reason why I have no real desire to address his comments.
[color=brown]I think Bibb and BCBG's comments sum up my opinions on the matter rather eloquently, so I will forgo rephrasing them. But, I do accept Herrade's objection to the complete admiration of the Pope's legacy (which is what I'm inferring from the lionization comments). Hardly any of the articles I've read chose to ignore the Pope's blind spots, so I am well aware of them. One of the reasons why I can side more with Bibb and BCBG's opinions, is that I never expected him to achieve dramatic policy changes for the Catholic Church.
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Admiral you did a better job of voicing my opinion, so far, than I believe I could have. I've been very hesitant to jump into the discussion not because I'm unwilling to state my thoughts but because I'm in agreement with so much that has been written here, and for me, like you, that includes seemingly contrary positions.
I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic elementary schools for a number of years, began rejecting the church at a very young age, came to the conclusion, probably in my late teens, that the Catholic church even at the local level was a nest of hypocrisy and was globally, due to it's spiritual misleading of millions and dangerous policies, largely a destructive or (at the very least irrelevant) force in the world.
As the leader of a theocracy that I rejected so long ago as to now have no passions left on the subject either way, this pope was no more significant or interesting to me as a person of import than Princess Diana was.
I've always realized, however, that my assesments of this pope amounted to not much more than incomplete cursury dismissals of who he was and what he represented in terms of values as well as the effects he might have had on people's lives or on the tides of larger world events. That's probably because I'm somewhere hanging on a thread between being an agnostic or being an outright atheist.
One simply can't expect the devout, or their leaders, to be something other than what they are. The pope is the leader of the Catholic church. The Catholic church considers birth control, even between married partners, to be a mortal sin. A mortal sin is that which is basically unforgivable. Negatively assessing the pope now, at this time, simply because he chose to reiterate or remind the world of the position of the Catholic church, as opposed to him brushing aside what has been considered a mortal sin because of Aids, or world population is, in my opinion, somewhat an immature position to be taking as regarding an assessment of this man's inherent qualities as realized in his position as the head of the Catholic church.
There's context here that existed long before this man was even born. Judge him for the initial decision to become a priest. That's certainly appropriate. But once he's a catholic priest, he's a representive of the church and when he becomes Pope he's the standard bearer of the entire theology.
The church's positions on homosexuality, birth control, stem cell research - so many things - are contributing reasons why I REJECT the Catholic church and its teachings and edicts (as well as every other religion on the face of the planet.) In that regard I'm in almost total agreement with Keegan and herrade and Luuuc.
On the other hand, I don't think you guys quite get it. This pope was something like the world nexus for love and peace and tolerance while he was alive and that should be something that's impossible to turn away from. It's not popularity, as someone described it. He was a humanist and an activist for so much that was good that it's hard to calculate the positives of his tenure as pope.
You can't have expected him to change tenents of the faith or even to relax things that appear to us to be outmoded or even destructive simply because we KNOW, as modern enlightened individuals, that there is a better way. He's pushing HIS way. He offered the church's, inept as they are to many of us, solutions to Aids and world population issues...
STOP FUCKING! lol!
Had to do that.
Where was I?
Expecting him to wave the birth control restrictions or accept homosexuality would be akin to having the new WNBA president say... "You know... I think we should play this game outdoors on grass... and we need a pitcher's mound as well. And can we have men, please? This all female league is discriminatory."
He's the head of the Catholic church, not the head of the ACLU or Planned Parenthood. As much as the world would be served by those three groups working in concert, it will NEVER happen.
So what some of you guys are doing is negatively judging this pope simply because he was catholic and upheld what it means to be catholic. There's nothing wrong with that actually, and that's why it's been so difficult for me to jump in. But in terms of the man himself, his true heart, the effect his life and papacy had on the world, his presence as some sort of spiritual father to people of even different faiths... I think some of you are short changing him.
The other thing that you should consider is the fact that he just simply got old. You shouldn't begin to discount or minimize the effect of being shot at 62 (probably before you were even born, Keegan) and getting old and infirm had on this man's potential to do even more good in the world.
I would have never expected him to change things that define what it means to be Catholic and I'm respectful enough of other people's feelings to not lash out here at this time with my own harsh feelings towards the Catholic church.
I can, however, readily admit that I see the unique goodness in and greatness of this person and his life, and have nothing but compassion and respect for both his suffering and courage. I understand and share in the outpouring of love and grief for this pope. He deserves nothing less, in my eyes.
But I also understand that it is (or can be) a perfectly valid stance to hold against this pope the many inflexible positions of the Catholic church. It's a conundrum. But it's a conundrum that has been created by the inherent uniqueness of the individual we're discussing.
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BCBG25
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 20112
Location: Sampa
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| Posted: 04/04/05 7:21 pm ::: |
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| Wow, jammer, I've never thought I'd be touched by something you wrote, especially a long-ass post, but I guess there's a first time for everything huh lol
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sambista
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 16951
Location: way station of life
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| Posted: 04/04/05 7:30 pm ::: |
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jammer, you are so right. admiral did a much better job voicing your opinion.
but seriously, once you hit your stride, way down toward the end there, there was some real poignancy.
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my condolences on your loss, dts.
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no justice, no peace.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 04/04/05 7:54 pm ::: |
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| BCBG25 wrote: |
| Wow, jammer, I've never thought I'd be touched by something you wrote, especially a long-ass post, but I guess there's a first time for everything huh lol |
Thanks, M. I love you too.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/04/05 8:17 pm ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
| herrade wrote: |
| i'm very sorry, dt. i hope she had a good life and didn't suffer too much. |
Oh yes! If I were offered today to make is to 93, and have the kids and grandkids, and the husbands she had, I'd sign on the dotted line!
Thank you for the kind thoughts. |
My sincere sympathies as well, d.
But what exactly would you do with those husbands of hers you covet?
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 18815
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| Posted: 04/06/05 8:38 am ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| dtsnms wrote: |
| herrade wrote: |
| i'm very sorry, dt. i hope she had a good life and didn't suffer too much. |
Oh yes! If I were offered today to make is to 93, and have the kids and grandkids, and the husbands she had, I'd sign on the dotted line!
Thank you for the kind thoughts. |
My sincere sympathies as well, d.
But what exactly would you do with those husbands of hers you covet? |
Thanks jammer, I think! Long ass day yesterday. Left the house by 7, made it home for the start of the championship game.
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