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ShockPR · Posted: 03/03/06 9:39 am ::: Orange & Oatmeal

http://www.wnba.com/shock/news/orangeoatmeal_060303.html

Kevin Pelton and I take a look at the Teasley-Johnson trade.

If you have any questions about the stats in the various charts, feel free to ask. We don't really take the time to explain them in this forum, so you might not recognize all of them.

Thanks much.

dtsnms · Dishin', Swishin' & Predictin'

I agree with you PR, I've made that clear. Maybe you can get torn to pieces like I have for dissing TJ! Shocked

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ShockPR · Posted: 03/03/06 9:54 am :::

No dissing of players here .

Smile

Just pointing out that Nikki T has been more productive so far in their careers. That fact might not mean anything going forward. We shall see. Should be fun though. There's been some pretty solid movement to shake things up so far this year.

dtsnms · Dishin', Swishin' & Predictin'

sootz · Posted: 03/03/06 10:16 am ::: Re: Orange & Oatmeal

ShockPR · Posted: 03/03/06 10:24 am :::

Sure can.

OER (Offensive Efficiency Rating) is the number of points a player is estimated to have produced per 100 possessions.

DER (Defensive Efficiency Rating) is the number of points a player is estimated to have allowed per 100 possessions

IMO the OER is a very accurate depiction of a player's offensive contributions.

The DER is not nearly as rock solid. We don't track the kind of stats on a box score that we would need to be more accurate, so some of what gets included in this number is a "team" defense figure. It may be that the player in question is the week link on a good defense, and therefore benefits from the team being good. Or the opposite may be true - a player may be a great defender on a bad team, and her rating will suffer because of that.

Some day we'll be able to better measure this.

ARat stands for Assit Ratio. This is the percentage of team's field goals that a player assists on. It isn't just the number of assists a player has divided by the team's field goals. A player can't assist on her own made field goals, and unless she was on the floor for 40 minutes every game, she didn't have the opportunity to assist on every other made field goal. So there are adjustments made to correct for that.

The top starting point guards are in the 30 percent range.

Hope that helps.

ShockPR · Posted: 03/03/06 10:26 am :::

I may have rushed that. Have to go to a meeting. I'll check back in afterwards to see if that made sense.

sootz · Posted: 03/03/06 10:32 am :::

cherrystreet · Posted: 03/03/06 10:39 am :::

You can't put stats on heart, determination and willpower. There have been alot of star players that have shown up by the latter. It happens ever day of the week. Think Detroit Pistons worker bees against the Future Hall of Fame mighty Lakers.

pilight · Posted: 03/03/06 10:55 am :::

A: Teasley as just a three point shooter is nowhere near as good as Figgs was. If you compare them playing in the same system, under Michael Cooper in LA, you see Figgs shooting 46% from three in 2001, something Teasley couldn't do if she were the only player on the court, and 43% from the floor in both 2000 and 2001, another thing Teasley's never been able to do in the W or even at UNC.

B: You should have been on the ESPN board in 2002. I said then that the Fire got the better of the trade, and I was right.

C: The pre- and post- All Star numbers can be explained in two words: Rookie Wall. Remember, these kids are going straight from the college season to the pro season with almost no break in between. It's worse for Johnson, who played into the final weekend of the NCAA tournament. I would guess that the pre- All Star numbers are more representative.

D: Teasley is 6' tall, but she doesn't really use her height well. Her career RPG are about the same as Lindsay Whalen's and she doesn't have huge block totals. Watching her play, you wouldn't know that she was any taller than the opposing PG in the announcers didn't remind you every 10 seconds.

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Luuuc · Posted: 03/03/06 11:07 am :::

pilight · Posted: 03/03/06 11:17 am :::

BCBG25 · Posted: 03/03/06 11:20 am :::

Not this debate AGAIN. Rolling Eyes

This is second only to who's better between Cooper and Swoopes...

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Slovydal · Posted: 03/03/06 11:22 am :::

The team that folded fared better than the team that won the championship?

Pilight, you talk about Nikki Teasley like Oovy talks about Seth.

PUmatty · Posted: 03/03/06 11:22 am :::

Just an FYI -- You have Teasley being shipped to the Washington Wizards.

For everyone who jumps on the mainstream media for every little mistake, let this be a lesson that not all mistakes are slights. It just speaks to how easy it is for something to slip through, even if it is carefully checked and written by people who know the game, as this piece was.

PUmatty · Posted: 03/03/06 11:24 am :::

Luuuc · Posted: 03/03/06 11:31 am :::

dtsnms · Dishin', Swishin' & Predictin'

BCBG25 · Posted: 03/03/06 11:36 am :::

I will gladly fight over that trade as no team is worse off if it repeats!
Now it's really over.
Sorry, Luuuc, didn't mean to sound harsh, just saying that this is an obsession for Pilight lol

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pilight · Posted: 03/03/06 11:52 am :::

BCBG25 · Posted: 03/03/06 12:02 pm :::

I liked Figgs, but it was a bad move going to PG hell. We'll gladly take her in NY if she decides she's not done with basketball. Not that this would be a good decision, but...just saying...

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sambista · Posted: 03/03/06 12:58 pm :::

it's in the grays, people!

yes, heart and determination can't be measured but must be factored in.

teasley hasn't used her height? (you canNOT be serious!). she is the best - yes, i said it - at seeing the floor and putting the ball where it needs to be. tj is a great point guard, but she's vertically challenged in that regard.

i honestly can't even remember what i thought of the teasley-figgs trade back then, but figgs likey would've proved hargrove right if she hadn't fallen victim to hargrove's own coaching failures.

pilight is definitely obsessed with figgs. perhaps one of the few truths unshaded by gray. liberty fans would take figgs in a heartbeat - nothing gray about that either!

ShockPR · Posted: 03/03/06 1:02 pm :::

A few more thoughts and a few more numbers.

I don't think that the Figgs trade was necessarily bad from a player talent standpoint, but as I recall (and I may not be recalling properly) it was pretty well known that Figgs had outside interests that would keep her from ever being a 16-year WNBA veteran. She was going to stop playing sooner rather than later. So Portland gave up an All-Star caliber rookie for a player who left after two more years in the league.

Here is Figgs' line during her final three WNBA seasons in LA, Portland and Houston.

ShockPR · Posted: 03/03/06 1:15 pm :::

yes, heart and determination can't be measured

I would disagree with this statement.

No, I can't give you a heart rating for every WNBA player, but if things like heart and determination exist, they will show up in the numbers.

If these things impact a team on the floor, it will impact the score at the very least, and should bleed into other areas as well.

Alepp03 · Posted: 03/03/06 1:38 pm :::

Figgs > Teasely

Had Teasely been in Portland, she would crashed and burned. Does anyone think that she would have actually been able to help that team any more than Figgs did? Teasely has little leadership, a limited offensive game, is turnover prone, and would have gotten lost in the mix in Portland. The Figgs move was one of the best Hargrove ever made. Teasely would have went no where fast in Portland.

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BCBG25 · Posted: 03/03/06 2:16 pm :::

The notion that Teasley is turnover prone is as overrated as her supposed shooting ability.
Her A/TO is 1.94. Sue Bird's is 1.96. Lindsay Whalen's is 1.75.
I'm not a stat nut, but some things are just myths.
TJ's is 2.01, BTW.

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dtsnms · Dishin', Swishin' & Predictin'

Alepp03 · Posted: 03/03/06 2:34 pm :::

Hey, this is me, not allowed to have a personal opinion...

What do you think I'm basing it on? What I think would have happened?

What has Teasely shown you that you think she would have done a better job with the Fire than Figgs?

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BCBG25 · Posted: 03/03/06 2:36 pm :::

BCBG25 · Posted: 03/03/06 2:39 pm :::

Alepp03 · Posted: 03/03/06 2:43 pm :::

dtsnms · Dishin', Swishin' & Predictin'

Alepp03 · Posted: 03/03/06 2:49 pm :::

Sorry, for me, I never take things I say as statements of fact. That's just me. Anyhow, what I said was definitely just my opinion. But I am very sold on my opinion. Intangibles, numbers, and history (at the time) would lead me to believe that Figgs was a tremendously better option for the Fire than Teasely.

For the Mystics, I feel like the change to the Tease was intriguing. I think that the PG trade was more or less a wash, but a wash trade that could have a huge positive impact on chemistry for the Mystics is no small deal.

If it were me, and I were starting a random team, I would prefer Teasely over Johnson because of size, predominantly while expecting the personality of my team to shine through more from other positions. I don't think Johnson is bad, or a team cancer necessarily, but I am not fond of 5'3.

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pilight · Posted: 03/03/06 2:55 pm :::

dtsnms · Dishin', Swishin' & Predictin'

sparkfan33 · Posted: 03/03/06 6:57 pm :::

spikeybedhead · Posted: 03/03/06 7:47 pm ::: James would be good.

But I wonder what people think of her compared to the likes of:

Nikki Blue
Erin Grant
Lisa Willis
La'Tangela Atkinson

I think Atkinson has a ton of upside and could give minutes @ the 3, and LA wouldn't lose any rebounding at the 4 spot with her in it.

Nikki Blue/Grant would shore up the PG situation. I really liked Teasley- and think last season was a fluke. I'm not sold on Johnon yet.

Willis- wildcard? I think he has a better outside shot than James. And that is something LA will need with Teasley gone.

pilight · Posted: 03/04/06 10:12 am :::

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