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Sass
Joined: 22 Mar 2005 Posts: 5576 Location: where it's sunny and warm
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Posted: 03/31/05 5:20 pm ::: finalists for the John R. Wooden award |
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They are:
Seimone Augustus
Monique Currie
Jessica Davenport
Janel McCarville
Kendra Wecker
The winner will be announced April 9.
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Four
Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 165
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Posted: 03/31/05 6:38 pm ::: |
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I agree for the most part with the final list.
Seimone Augustus of course should be on it.
Monique Currie is a big name at a big school, but I think there are others more deserving.
Jessica Davenport is good but again I think others are more deserving. She was dominating in the regular season but once teams figured her out, she was not as much of a threat. But she was Big Ten player of the year (regular season).
Janel McCarville is deserving, she should have been on the AP All American 1st team. She leads a sweet sixteen team in every major statistical category (points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks). And she averaged a double-double.
Kendra Wecker is deserving. She is good, very good.
I will admit to being biased towards McCarville but it can be backed up.
This year when Minnesota (McCarville) played LSU, she was amazing. Compared to Augustus, McCarville's stats were better, but in the end LSU had the better team.
This year in the Big Ten tourney, McCarville had 21 points, 15 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 key steals, and a couple blocks against Ohio State. She held Davenport to just 12 points.
Last year McCarville's final four bound Minnesota team beat Kendra Wecker's KSU and Currie's Duke.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18371 Location: Phoenix
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Posted: 03/31/05 6:40 pm ::: |
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McCarville also allowed Davenport to explode in previous meetings.
What does last year's performance have to do with this year's performance?
Monique Currie is a big name at a big school, but I think there are others more deserving.
Jessica Davenport is good but again I think others are more deserving
Like?
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66896 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 03/31/05 6:41 pm ::: |
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I would put Sandora Irvin on instead of McCarville
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Four
Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 165
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Posted: 03/31/05 7:39 pm ::: |
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OSU and Minn met twice. Once on OSU's home floor where Davenport scored 30something. McCarville admited to letting her have the ball to easily, and McCarville also sat out about 10 minutes of the second half because of fouls. The next meeting on a nuetral floor in the BT tourney McCarville dominated.
And about the Sandora Irvin comment...Irvin did not get out of the first round in the NCAA tourney. She would not be nearly as good if she played in a league like the Big Ten, ACC, or Big East.
Other players that should have been given consideration in place of Currie and Davenport are:
Sophia Young of Baylor
Cappie Pondexter of Rutgers
I think Currie and Davenport are good, I just would have liked to see some other names.
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Keegan
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 Posts: 6861 Location: The Cathedral of Snark
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Posted: 03/31/05 7:46 pm ::: |
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Sophia Young deserved to get in over McCarville but seniors do get "precedence". McCarville's statistical dominance says just as much about her team as they do about her. I don't think it's a strong argument for her being on the list. |
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 2831
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Posted: 03/31/05 7:55 pm ::: |
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I think it's really tough, because I think there are 7 players who are all sort of tied -- the five listed plus Irvin and Young.
McCarville didn't allow Dav to explode in "previous meetings." She allowed Dav to explode exactly once, and then she turned around and beat her down the next time.
The second game -- neutral floor, Big Ten semis -- was probably more important. But the first was on national TV; the second wasn't; such is life.
Dav also frankly didn't have a good March. Janel didn't have a great March (especially in the two March losses), but her month was better than Dav's. I think people started to figure out how to play Jess better. She slipped in my view a little since the beginning of the month. Her overall performance this year makes her a deserving Kodak top-10, but the top-5 looks a little dicey. Especially giving some edge to seniors.
I have really no opinion about Irvin over McCarville. Just haven't seen Irvin enough to know. She has great numbers; I still question the level of post competition she sees in CUSA; but since I've only seen about 2 CUSA games all year, I'm in really no position to say.
Young has had very good numbers all year, and she's getting better and better through March. She's kicked some serious butt to get her team to Indy. I think you could make a good case that she should be top 5.
Currie's numbers are worse than any of the other 6, but I still give her a pretty big break for playing through the pain.
I put Wecker and Augustus first, I guess, if you made me order. After that... draw straws or something.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66896 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 03/31/05 8:01 pm ::: |
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Four wrote: |
And about the Sandora Irvin comment...Irvin did not get out of the first round in the NCAA tourney. She would not be nearly as good if she played in a league like the Big Ten, ACC, or Big East. |
Irvin went for 28 points and 15 rebounds against Georgia, 23 and 17 against Michigan State, 32 and 18 against Oklahoma, 21 and 16 against Tennessee, 26 and 17 against USC. Those are all major conference teams that made the NCAA tournament. Compare any of the other contenders' numbers against tournament teams and they will come up short.
TCU lost in the NCAA tournament because Irvin didn't have enough help. OTOH, they did beat Michigan State, something McCarville and company couldn't do in three tries.
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Four
Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 165
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Posted: 03/31/05 8:42 pm ::: |
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Those Irvin numbers are impressive...I hope they are impressive enough to the coaches of Indiana Fever so that McCarville can go to Phoenix.
I think it says a lot that McCarville leads her team in every category. She could just sit on the block and score on layups, and then go to the other end of the floor and get some rebounds. But she doesn't do that. She does everything she can for her team and being the returning star, all-american, lone senior, she was the go to player for everything. McCarville was the main game plan for opposing teams and she still came out with the numbers.
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 2831
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Posted: 03/31/05 9:24 pm ::: |
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Keegan wrote: |
McCarville's statistical dominance says just as much about her team as they do about her. I don't think it's a strong argument for her being on the list. |
well, it's not just her statistical lead on the team. It's her statistics compared to the other candidates, and when you look at that, she looks pretty good.
The real issue is: haven't we worn out the use of statistics?
The problem with these debates is that most of us has seen each of these players play fewer than 5 times. So how are we really supposed to judge? Doesn't the statistical analysis start to get a little boring after awhile?
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Keegan
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 Posts: 6861 Location: The Cathedral of Snark
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Posted: 03/31/05 9:42 pm ::: |
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Why is there even a list of finalists anyway? Why not just announce the winner? I suppose to generate media hype but I don't think it's necessary.
I suppose stats are done to death because they're numbers and slightly more tangible than personal preferences. Deep statistical analysis for college is more flawed than for the pros for obvious reasons (schedule issues). |
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accommodatingly
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 2191 Location: Saint Paul, MN
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Posted: 03/31/05 9:49 pm ::: lists |
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Keegan wrote: |
I suppose stats are done to death because they're numbers and slightly more tangible than personal preferences. Deep statistical analysis for college is more flawed than for the pros for obvious reasons (schedule issues). |
Numbers are less subjective and much shorter than lengthy prose descriptions of key play after key play a star player has made, and much more portable/ reproducible/ digestible than hours of tape, which is what coaches look at. Has ANYONE here seen Sandora Irvin play more than twice this year?
Of course lists of finalists generate media attention-- media attention to our sport is a good thing, right?
But lists also honor players who deserve public honor as among the best in the sport but who aren't actually going to win these awards. Just to get away from the McCarville debate for a minute: raise your hand if you think Wecker is actually going to win a major postseason award.
Now raise your hand if you think her play this season deserves a public honor of some kind.
That's why they should release lists of finalists for postseason awards.
Also, I know there's an award for the best player under a certain height (the one Valek won last year)-- in effect for best guard-- but does anyone give an award specifically for the best post?
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Keegan
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 Posts: 6861 Location: The Cathedral of Snark
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Posted: 03/31/05 9:55 pm ::: Re: lists |
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accommodatingly wrote: |
Now raise your hand if you think her play this season deserves a public honor of some kind.
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All-American lists?
They could create MORE awards of course. I'd welcome position-specific awards.
The pros don't have lists of finalists and they do fine.
I generally don't get overly worked up over awards anymore though. Congrats to all who get them (though I will snark about the 2001 WNBA ROTY award from time to time ) |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66896 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 03/31/05 9:59 pm ::: |
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Most people use statistics like a drunk uses a lamppost, for support rather than illumination.
At best, stats tell you only part of the story. They're evidence, not proof.
At worst, numbers can lead you to a wholly preposterous conclusion. I could give you a pretty good statistical case that Samantha Mahoney is the best freshperson in the country, but that wouldn't make it true.
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I ain't got a home
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 2831
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Posted: 03/31/05 10:09 pm ::: |
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Keegan wrote: |
Why is there even a list of finalists anyway? |
a bigger question: why even have the awards at all?
I'm completely serious. I don't mean to sound like some Wooden devote, but isn't basketball a team game? Is it possible that we put too much emphasis on these individual awards? Is it possible that maybe the players (and coaches) do too?
Is it possible that that's bad for the game? (see, e.g., the state of men's basketball, or at least most people's perception of the state of men's basketball.)
Of course accommodatingly has already given the answer: media attention. That's what this is about. These awards give a hook for newspaper stories and for talk on SportsCenter (i wish)... and for debates on message boards.
But are individual awards in basketball a good thing? Or a mixed blessing? Or a necessary evil?
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Four
Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 165
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Posted: 03/31/05 11:02 pm ::: |
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The team award is the final four and the championship.
I think any player would take the final four and/or the championship over any individual award anyday.
I like individual awards. They recognize and reward the players that have put in the extra time, the extra work, and the extra drive to be the best of the best. Of course there are players out there who do work just as hard and are not recognized, but life sucks...
Anyways, I am just waisting my time talking about McCarville because she is probably the last player of the five to win. After watching ESPNs SportCentury on John Wooden, I think he would approve of McCarville's play but not the tattoos, un-uniform hair, and baggy shorts. Wooden is the coach that told Bill Walton to cut his shaggy hair or else. But who knows.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 66896 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 03/31/05 11:11 pm ::: |
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womens_hoops wrote: |
But are individual awards in basketball a good thing? Or a mixed blessing? Or a necessary evil? |
I vote for necessary evil. If the awards didn't exist, someone would invent them in short order. If we didn't have awards people would assume that nobody cares enough to give them.
_________________ I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 2831
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Posted: 03/31/05 11:26 pm ::: |
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Four wrote: |
After watching ESPNs SportCentury on John Wooden, I think he would approve of McCarville's play but not the tattoos, un-uniform hair, and baggy shorts. Wooden is the coach that told Bill Walton to cut his shaggy hair or else. But who knows. |
Did you see the Outside the Lines when Walton did a half-hour interview with Wooden?
It was awesome. I mean seriously, I was just amazed at the man.
They talked about how Wooden was this very straight-arrow, conservative, deeply religious, midwestern guy. And went out to California.
Walton asked: how did you deal with the crazy hippie pot-smoking counterculture freaks like me?
Wooden's answer: I never thought I should have any control over my players' religion or their politics. I wanted you to be a man and to be able to back up your views with intelligent argument. But I wasn't there to change your views. I was there to teach basketball.
(I thought -- wouldn't it be nice if Rene heard that?)
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Four
Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 165
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Posted: 03/31/05 11:47 pm ::: |
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I wish I could have seen that.
It gives me a little more hope on McCarville's part.
It took Wooden 13 seasons to get the results that he is now famous for though. Do you think coaches nowadays would be given that much time?
Another thing. You guys were talking about stats...How do these Wooden Award voters get their info on players to make good choices. Do they just see as many games as they can and then look at stats, or do they actually get to see a lot of games and more in-debth info?
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 2831
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Posted: 04/01/05 7:36 am ::: |
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Four wrote: |
Another thing. You guys were talking about stats...How do these Wooden Award voters get their info on players to make good choices. Do they just see as many games as they can and then look at stats, or do they actually get to see a lot of games and more in-debth info? |
The list is chosen by a selection committee made up of bunch of big media names: Voepel, Greenberg, Michelle Smith, Clay, Mike Terry, Doris, Ann Meyers, Dick Patrick, and a couple others.
http://woodenaward.com/newsDetails.cfm?nwsID=14
The award itself is decided on by a large list of voters, all media people. Sounds like at least 1 from each state, and usually more.
So I don't know. I'm guessing that Voepel probably watches a lot of games. I'm guessing, however, that the majority of voters have actually seen fewer games than you and I have.
So they decide based on stats. And reputation and buzz. Which is why Augustus will win.
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