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bballgrl



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: 07/29/12 9:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GEF34 wrote:
bballgrl wrote:

Stay out of my mind Very Happy Darn if I didn't think the same thing, especially after all the hoopla about her not making it. How about letting the 2 who preformed BETTER have their spot which THEY earned. I feel bad for Jordyn but not at the expense of those who had a better showing. I will be really pissed if Jordyn is "slipped" into the all around due to "injury" of either of the 2 who made it on their preformance.


A substitution does not have to be made due to injury, the USA can make a substitution simply because Jordyn finished in the top 24. If a substitution is made for injury that gymnast can not compete in the event finals she qualified for, if she is substituted just because than she can compete in the event finals she qualified for. I don't know if Martha Karolyi will made the substitution, but I guarantee you if she does it won't be because of an "injury" because every US gymnast who qualified for an even final will compete in even finals unless they are substituted as well, but the only event a substitute can be made is beam.


Why on earth would she make a substitution "just because". If she were the parent of either of the 2 who made it and the coach did a just because switch I am sure she wouldn't like it. What reason would she have to make a substitution anyway, it's not like the all around has anything to do with the team, it is an individual medal. If she did that just to allow Jordyn to compete it would be unprofessional IMO. You don't reward someone who didn't do their best by knocking out someone else who did. The ladies have to EARN the right to compete in all arounds not have it just given to them. Ally and Gabby both earned their opportunity.


GEF34



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PostPosted: 07/29/12 9:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
What's the tiebreaker that makes Mustafina's 14.433 on floor better than Tweddle's 14.433? Because whatever that difference is kept Beth out of another individual apparatus final.


from what I gathered on another message board, both had the same e-score, but Aliya Mustafina had a higher d score, so Aliya gets the higher placement.


GEF34



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PostPosted: 07/29/12 9:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bballgrl wrote:
GEF34 wrote:
bballgrl wrote:

Stay out of my mind Very Happy Darn if I didn't think the same thing, especially after all the hoopla about her not making it. How about letting the 2 who preformed BETTER have their spot which THEY earned. I feel bad for Jordyn but not at the expense of those who had a better showing. I will be really pissed if Jordyn is "slipped" into the all around due to "injury" of either of the 2 who made it on their preformance.


A substitution does not have to be made due to injury, the USA can make a substitution simply because Jordyn finished in the top 24. If a substitution is made for injury that gymnast can not compete in the event finals she qualified for, if she is substituted just because than she can compete in the event finals she qualified for. I don't know if Martha Karolyi will made the substitution, but I guarantee you if she does it won't be because of an "injury" because every US gymnast who qualified for an even final will compete in even finals unless they are substituted as well, but the only event a substitute can be made is beam.


Why on earth would she make a substitution "just because". If she were the parent of either of the 2 who made it and the coach did a just because switch I am sure she wouldn't like it. What reason would she have to make a substitution anyway, it's not like the all around has anything to do with the team, it is an individual medal. If she did that just to allow Jordyn to compete it would be unprofessional IMO. You don't reward someone who didn't do their best by knocking out someone else who did. The ladies have to EARN the right to compete in all arounds not have it just given to them. Ally and Gabby both earned their opportunity.


It happens all the time in gymnastics, if a gymnast qualifies, but isn't among the top 2, she can replace a teammate who placed her higher than her. Sometimes a coach will do it because they believe that gymnast has a better chance of winning, or that gymnast has a better reputation, or other various reasons. She is the national team coordinator so she has final say whether a substitution is made, granted it's not a team event, but it's not like she no longer has power over the team once the team competition is over.

With that said I don't see her making a substitution, but it has been done in gymnastics and a gymnast doesn't have to be "injured" to be substituted.


UTexRulz23



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 2611
Location: Austin, Texas


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PostPosted: 07/29/12 10:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GEF34 wrote:
bballgrl wrote:
GEF34 wrote:
bballgrl wrote:

Stay out of my mind Very Happy Darn if I didn't think the same thing, especially after all the hoopla about her not making it. How about letting the 2 who preformed BETTER have their spot which THEY earned. I feel bad for Jordyn but not at the expense of those who had a better showing. I will be really pissed if Jordyn is "slipped" into the all around due to "injury" of either of the 2 who made it on their preformance.


A substitution does not have to be made due to injury, the USA can make a substitution simply because Jordyn finished in the top 24. If a substitution is made for injury that gymnast can not compete in the event finals she qualified for, if she is substituted just because than she can compete in the event finals she qualified for. I don't know if Martha Karolyi will made the substitution, but I guarantee you if she does it won't be because of an "injury" because every US gymnast who qualified for an even final will compete in even finals unless they are substituted as well, but the only event a substitute can be made is beam.


Why on earth would she make a substitution "just because". If she were the parent of either of the 2 who made it and the coach did a just because switch I am sure she wouldn't like it. What reason would she have to make a substitution anyway, it's not like the all around has anything to do with the team, it is an individual medal. If she did that just to allow Jordyn to compete it would be unprofessional IMO. You don't reward someone who didn't do their best by knocking out someone else who did. The ladies have to EARN the right to compete in all arounds not have it just given to them. Ally and Gabby both earned their opportunity.


It happens all the time in gymnastics, if a gymnast qualifies, but isn't among the top 2, she can replace a teammate who placed her higher than her. Sometimes a coach will do it because they believe that gymnast has a better chance of winning, or that gymnast has a better reputation, or other various reasons. She is the national team coordinator so she has final say whether a substitution is made, granted it's not a team event, but it's not like she no longer has power over the team once the team competition is over.

With that said I don't see her making a substitution, but it has been done in gymnastics and a gymnast doesn't have to be "injured" to be substituted.


Isn't Wieber's personal coach also the head coach of the whole team? I mean, obviously Martha is calling the shots, but, just something to consider. But, for the record, I don't think a substitution will happen.



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GEF34



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: 07/29/12 10:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

UTexRulz23 wrote:
GEF34 wrote:
bballgrl wrote:
GEF34 wrote:
bballgrl wrote:

Stay out of my mind Very Happy Darn if I didn't think the same thing, especially after all the hoopla about her not making it. How about letting the 2 who preformed BETTER have their spot which THEY earned. I feel bad for Jordyn but not at the expense of those who had a better showing. I will be really pissed if Jordyn is "slipped" into the all around due to "injury" of either of the 2 who made it on their preformance.


A substitution does not have to be made due to injury, the USA can make a substitution simply because Jordyn finished in the top 24. If a substitution is made for injury that gymnast can not compete in the event finals she qualified for, if she is substituted just because than she can compete in the event finals she qualified for. I don't know if Martha Karolyi will made the substitution, but I guarantee you if she does it won't be because of an "injury" because every US gymnast who qualified for an even final will compete in even finals unless they are substituted as well, but the only event a substitute can be made is beam.


Why on earth would she make a substitution "just because". If she were the parent of either of the 2 who made it and the coach did a just because switch I am sure she wouldn't like it. What reason would she have to make a substitution anyway, it's not like the all around has anything to do with the team, it is an individual medal. If she did that just to allow Jordyn to compete it would be unprofessional IMO. You don't reward someone who didn't do their best by knocking out someone else who did. The ladies have to EARN the right to compete in all arounds not have it just given to them. Ally and Gabby both earned their opportunity.


It happens all the time in gymnastics, if a gymnast qualifies, but isn't among the top 2, she can replace a teammate who placed her higher than her. Sometimes a coach will do it because they believe that gymnast has a better chance of winning, or that gymnast has a better reputation, or other various reasons. She is the national team coordinator so she has final say whether a substitution is made, granted it's not a team event, but it's not like she no longer has power over the team once the team competition is over.

With that said I don't see her making a substitution, but it has been done in gymnastics and a gymnast doesn't have to be "injured" to be substituted.


Isn't Wieber's personal coach also the head coach of the whole team? I mean, obviously Martha is calling the shots, but, just something to consider. But, for the record, I don't think a substitution will happen.


He is the team head coach, but she has final say, he can't make a substitution on his own because he is head coach, it has to come from her.


bballgrl



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PostPosted: 07/30/12 12:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One other question. Gabby had the highest score on vault 15.900 (team) why is there only 1 us gymnast in the vault final. Shouldn't she be in that final along with McKayla who scored 15.800. I know McKayla is the vault specialist but if the top 2 qualify why isn't Gabby there. At first I thought it was because she was in the AA but she is also in beam and bars for individual. Are they trying to keep down the number of medals she could win? McKayla is the vault specialist but Gabby had a higher score on vault than McKayla. I guess they don't want to face the chance that she might win the individual in vault.


GEF34



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: 07/30/12 12:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bballgrl wrote:
One other question. Gabby had the highest score on vault 15.900 (team) why is there only 1 us gymnast in the vault final. Shouldn't she be in that final along with McKayla who scored 15.800. I know McKayla is the vault specialist but if the top 2 qualify why isn't Gabby there. At first I thought it was because she was in the AA but she is also in beam and bars for individual. Are they trying to keep down the number of medals she could win? McKayla is the vault specialist but Gabby had a higher score on vault than McKayla. I guess they don't want to face the chance that she might win the individual in vault.


To qualify for vault finals a gymnast has to complete 2 vaults from different families (entry onto the vault table), McKayla Maroney is the only gymnast on the US team that competes 2 vaults to qualify for vault finals. It is most likely Gabby's choice to only train one vault and concentrate on doing that as best she can as well as increasing/improving/perfecting the other 3 events to increase her all around chances.

BTW in terms of team competition McKayla and Gabby both scored a 15.9.


scullyfu



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PostPosted: 07/30/12 1:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bela karoly was on with bob costas and blasting the two-per-team rule, stating that the competition is supposed to be for the 24 best gymnasts, that a person shouldn't be penalized just because they come from a strong team. he also questioned the scoring and deductions on all of jordyn's events.



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Tally24



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PostPosted: 07/30/12 2:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not an expert in Gymnastics, nor will I ever be, but even to me as an intersted observer this rule doesn't seem right.

You want the top 24 to be competing in the AA. Is it fair to penalize a country with a talented group of gymnasts?

In the interview with Károlyi, they compared the sitiuation to the NCAA Tournement. They said something like "Now to put this in perspective it would be like only the Top Two Teams from each confrence getting into the NCAA Tourement.

That would mean only Notre Dame and UConn would get in from the Big East, adn obviously they aren't the only ones from the confrence that are deserving of a berth. They may be themost deserving, but the the only deserving ones.

This comparrison really put it into perspective for me.

Oh and on a sidenote, I sure do miss Nastia Liukin Crying or Very sad
blaase22



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PostPosted: 07/30/12 3:09 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's a retarded rule. I really am losing interest in gymnastics with all these rule changes. I don't like lowering the number of gymnasts per country to 5 from 7 , or not allowing gymnasts younger than 16. If they're good enough they should be allowed to compete regardless of their age IMO. It is incredibly unfair to gymnasts that are 14/15 in an olympic year when the peak age of the sport is 16/17:?


Tally24 wrote:
I'm not an expert in Gymnastics, nor will I ever be, but even to me as an intersted observer this rule doesn't seem right.

You want the top 24 to be competing in the AA. Is it fair to penalize a country with a talented group of gymnasts?

In the interview with Károlyi, they compared the sitiuation to the NCAA Tournement. They said something like "Now to put this in perspective it would be like only the Top Two Teams from each confrence getting into the NCAA Tourement.

That would mean only Notre Dame and UConn would get in from the Big East, adn obviously they aren't the only ones from the confrence that are deserving of a berth. They may be themost deserving, but the the only deserving ones.

This comparrison really put it into perspective for me.

Oh and on a sidenote, I sure do miss Nastia Liukin Crying or Very sad


Tally24



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PostPosted: 07/30/12 3:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

blaase22 wrote:
It's a retarded rule. I really am losing interest in gymnastics with all these rule changes. I don't like lowering the number of gymnasts per country to 5 from 7 , or not allowing gymnasts younger than 16. If they're good enough they should be allowed to compete regardless of their age IMO. It is incredibly unfair to gymnasts that are 14/15 in an olympic year when the peak age of the sport is 16/17:?


Tally24 wrote:
I'm not an expert in Gymnastics, nor will I ever be, but even to me as an intersted observer this rule doesn't seem right.

You want the top 24 to be competing in the AA. Is it fair to penalize a country with a talented group of gymnasts?

In the interview with Károlyi, they compared the sitiuation to the NCAA Tournement. They said something like "Now to put this in perspective it would be like only the Top Two Teams from each confrence getting into the NCAA Tourement.

That would mean only Notre Dame and UConn would get in from the Big East, adn obviously they aren't the only ones from the confrence that are deserving of a berth. They may be themost deserving, but the the only deserving ones.

This comparrison really put it into perspective for me.

Oh and on a sidenote, I sure do miss Nastia Liukin Crying or Very sad


I find it terrifingly amamzing that once you hit your 20's you might be on the decline as a gymnast! (I think, but not sure)
J-Spoon



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PostPosted: 07/30/12 4:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

OK

The rule is stupid the whole point of the Olympics is to let the best athletes in the world compete and Jordyn came in 4th for crying out loud and there are 24 spots. It is devastating to watch someone have their dreamed ripped away from them based on a technicality. She did her best to keep it classy even though you know she was dying inside.

There was a moment after the beam when Jordyn spoke with her coach on the sidelines and he basically said that her score were opening up the door for the other girl, I think he psyched her out and while this kind of motivation works for some athletes I think he put some negatives in her mind when she needed to be getting focused for her floor exercise. On the other hand The girl who sort of came out of no where Aly said in her final interview that she wasn't even aware of the scores and I think that helped her. I also think being under the radar helped her, and you saw on her beam and floor exercise that she had that kill it expression on her face. She wasn't going to let anyone stop her from making the all around when that power was in her hands. Those are the kind of moments when you see someone rise up against their percieved limitations that make athletics transcend into the drama of the human condition, and gives the whole thing deeper meaning then whose the best at tumbling on a mat. The irony is the Jordyn will probably have an amazing team competition because she'll have something to prove, and the pressure will be off.

I feel terrible for Jordyn but I love watching an athlete seize the moment and that is exactly what Aly did. With that said the rule is lame, no way should someone who comes in 4th be replaced by someone who comes in 25th that is just absurd, and it does taint the sport.


scullyfu



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PostPosted: 07/30/12 8:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

i think a coach knows his player, and how to motivate her, better than any one of us. he's been with her for years, day in, day out. he most definitely knows her psyche, what to tell her and how much she can take.

my gripe with these subjective scoring sports (gymnastics, ice skating, diving) is that it is just that, subjective. back in the day, the lop-sided scoring was very much blatantly straight down geo-political lines. not so much anymore, but many an athlete's heart was broken with the old scoring system.



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GEF34



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PostPosted: 07/30/12 10:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

blaase22 wrote:
It's a retarded rule. I really am losing interest in gymnastics with all these rule changes. I don't like lowering the number of gymnasts per country to 5 from 7 , or not allowing gymnasts younger than 16. If they're good enough they should be allowed to compete regardless of their age IMO. It is incredibly unfair to gymnasts that are 14/15 in an olympic year when the peak age of the sport is 16/17:?


Is it really fair to say a gymnasts peak age is 16-17 though, look at how many women are competing and are doing better gymnastics in their early to mid-20s than they did when they were 16-17. I think now gymnasts are really showing 16-17 isn't really a peak age anymore as it was in the past, but with that said I think a lot of the rules are unfair to gymnasts and country. With the exception of changing the size of the team, the rules have been in effect since 1997, and teams were changed from 7 to 6 in 1997 as well, so really the only new rule is changing the team size from 6 to 5.


bballgrl



Joined: 15 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: 07/30/12 6:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GEF34 wrote:
bballgrl wrote:
One other question. Gabby had the highest score on vault 15.900 (team) why is there only 1 us gymnast in the vault final. Shouldn't she be in that final along with McKayla who scored 15.800. I know McKayla is the vault specialist but if the top 2 qualify why isn't Gabby there. At first I thought it was because she was in the AA but she is also in beam and bars for individual. Are they trying to keep down the number of medals she could win? McKayla is the vault specialist but Gabby had a higher score on vault than McKayla. I guess they don't want to face the chance that she might win the individual in vault.


To qualify for vault finals a gymnast has to complete 2 vaults from different families (entry onto the vault table), McKayla Maroney is the only gymnast on the US team that competes 2 vaults to qualify for vault finals. It is most likely Gabby's choice to only train one vault and concentrate on doing that as best she can as well as increasing/improving/perfecting the other 3 events to increase her all around chances.

BTW in terms of team competition McKayla and Gabby both scored a 15.9.


Thanks for the explanation. Oh, I saw my mistake in the scores.


GEF34



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: 07/30/12 10:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bballgrl wrote:
GEF34 wrote:
bballgrl wrote:
One other question. Gabby had the highest score on vault 15.900 (team) why is there only 1 us gymnast in the vault final. Shouldn't she be in that final along with McKayla who scored 15.800. I know McKayla is the vault specialist but if the top 2 qualify why isn't Gabby there. At first I thought it was because she was in the AA but she is also in beam and bars for individual. Are they trying to keep down the number of medals she could win? McKayla is the vault specialist but Gabby had a higher score on vault than McKayla. I guess they don't want to face the chance that she might win the individual in vault.


To qualify for vault finals a gymnast has to complete 2 vaults from different families (entry onto the vault table), McKayla Maroney is the only gymnast on the US team that competes 2 vaults to qualify for vault finals. It is most likely Gabby's choice to only train one vault and concentrate on doing that as best she can as well as increasing/improving/perfecting the other 3 events to increase her all around chances.

BTW in terms of team competition McKayla and Gabby both scored a 15.9.


Thanks for the explanation. Oh, I saw my mistake in the scores.


You're welcome, and if you have any other questions feel free to ask, either or in the men's thread if you have a question about men's gymnastics, and I'll do my best to answer or find the answer for you.

Also I just figured you looked at McKayla's average in the vault finalist list, no biggie. Wink


GEF34



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PostPosted: 07/30/12 10:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here is the start list for the Finals which will be on Tuesday (7/31) at 8:30am pacific time.

Rotation 1:
Vault: USA, Russia
Uneven Bars: China, Romania
Balance Beam: Great Britain, Japan
Floor: Italy, Canada

Complete rotation list:
http://www.fig-docs.com/microsites/london12/results/files/sl/wag/sl_wag_team_f.pdf

Live scoring:
http://www.nbcolympics.com/gymnastics/event/women-team/index.html

Live stream:
http://www.nbcolympics.com/online-listings/sport=gymnastics/day=july-31/index.html


bballgrl



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PostPosted: 07/31/12 10:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've seen the lineup and assignments for the team final. Gabby is doing all 4 rotations, Jordyn is doing 3, Ally and Kayla are doing 2 each and McKyala is doing 1.

It would seem to me that Jordyn, being the World Champion, would participate in all 4 rotations. I really, really hope that Gabby isn't being set up for injury. I hope I am wrong but I just have a gut feeling that somehow Jordyn is going to get into the all around at the expense of someone else. Keeping my fingers crossed that that is not the case.


toad455



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PostPosted: 07/31/12 12:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

***SPOILER***


























USA women just won team gold. Russia won silver, Romania won bronze.



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blaase22



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PostPosted: 07/31/12 12:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I saw the BBC1 broadcast online and it's so much better than NBC it's not even funny. The american girls stepped up to the plate unlike the men, total domination,Congrats to them. I hope Gabby and Ally finish 1 and 2 in the all around, the Russian girls seem like trainwrecks.


SouthernFan



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PostPosted: 07/31/12 12:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Congrats to the American ladies. Incredibly talented group!


GEF34



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: 07/31/12 12:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

***Spoiler Alert, results of team finals are listed below***




The Final women's standings are listed below


Team:
1. USA 183.596
2. Russia 178.530
3. Romania 176.414
4. China 174.430
5. Canada 170.804
6. Great Britain 170.495
7. Italy 167.930
8. Japan 166.646

The USA wins the team Olympic gold for the 2nd time in history, the first time was in 1996. As the saying goes history repeats itself, the last time USA won gold in Atlanta the top 4 teams finished in exactly the same order.


GEF34



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PostPosted: 07/31/12 1:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

blaase22 wrote:
The american girls stepped up to the plate unlike the men, total domination,Congrats to them. I hope Gabby and Ally finish 1 and 2 in the all around, the Russian girls seem like trainwrecks.


It's a shame that the men are characterized based on one night. No one cares what happened in the past, it's just this one night and they are branded for life, they didn't fall apart last year at the World Championships when they won the team bronze, but now they are chokers and they can't step up to the plate. This is the same thing that happened to Alicia Sacramone and led her to coming back, she was a world championship, she was an anchor for the USA, hitting the gold medal clinching floor routine at the 2007 world championships, but she was only know as the girl who fell on beam in Beijing. She has even said, she doesn't understand how can one bad night write her career, no one cared she led the team to gold at the world championships, no one cared she won individual gold medals the last 3 years, all she was known as the girl who fell on beam. The same can also be said for the Russian women, one night doesn't write their careers, there are world champions and world medalist on the team that won the silver medal, they have had great careers in the past 2 years, but one bad night and now they are called trainwrecks.


PalaceAthena



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PostPosted: 07/31/12 2:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FYI, for anyone that cares...

The rule about only 2 gymnasts per country allowed to compete in the All Around was changed after the 2000 Sydney Olympics when Romania swept the podium: Andrea Raducan won gold, Simona Amanar took silver and Maria Olaru bronze. Raducan, infamously and sadly, had her gold stripped for testing positive for Sudafed, of all things, which was given to her by the team doctor because she had a cold. So the fourth place girl from China was moved up to bronze. The rest of the story...Raducan had to return her gold, but initially Amanar and Olaru refused to upgrade their medals insisting their teammate was the true all-around champion. Amanar eventually did take the gold but said it was just so she could bring it back to Romania where it belonged. And she supposedly gave the gold back to Raducan once back in Romania.

Andrea Raducan photo then...
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-athletes-who-lost-their-olympic-medal.php/andreea-raducan-top-tenz-2

And photo now...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreea_R%C4%83ducan


bridgehere



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PostPosted: 07/31/12 2:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GEF34 wrote:
bballgrl wrote:

Stay out of my mind Very Happy Darn if I didn't think the same thing, especially after all the hoopla about her not making it. How about letting the 2 who preformed BETTER have their spot which THEY earned. I feel bad for Jordyn but not at the expense of those who had a better showing. I will be really pissed if Jordyn is "slipped" into the all around due to "injury" of either of the 2 who made it on their preformance.


A substitution does not have to be made due to injury, the USA can make a substitution simply because Jordyn finished in the top 24. If a substitution is made for injury that gymnast can not compete in the event finals she qualified for, if she is substituted just because than she can compete in the event finals she qualified for. I don't know if Martha Karolyi will made the substitution, but I guarantee you if she does it won't be because of an "injury" because every US gymnast who qualified for an even final will compete in even finals unless they are substituted as well, but the only event a substitute can be made is beam.


I don't see any way that they substitute Jordyn in, unless someone is really injured. Did you see Aly's parents when she performed? They would kill before they would let that happen. Of course, I guess they could substitute for Gabby but she was expected to be in the all-around from what the announcers were saying. I agree there won't be substitutions unless from a real injury.


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